Intense questions (Philosophical and Spiritual)

[quote=“Black Flame, post:16, topic:6537”]So this would suggest that we are giving them energy, which through they channel themselves to this world - and what we gain from them in this world is actually channeled through energy provided by us ?

I would be amazed is someone had actual prove of their theories, i value all speculation…[/quote]

I did not write about an energy loop of some sort. If this is your theory, you should give proof.

I wrote contact with “the real world” is entertaining for them, so they give something in order to increase the entertainment. If they give something you are more interested in contacting them and they have more fun. But you should be careful, some funny demons could try to take over.

If you need some proof send me your demon energy measuring equipment. I have non, sorry. :slight_smile:

I know you don’t mean to provoke, but it would be helpful to understand your motivations, and why you asume that some things, specially magical related things has to “make sense” in a traditional ol logical way. Also, it seems you are afraid of magic taking characteristics of religion, but proselitizing is a characteristic of religion too, so let me ask, just for curiosity, do you think that you need to proselitize magic to make a better world? like some kind of global illumination? I know magic can open minds and maybe make a better world, but there are many cultural obstacles to make magic accepted, and one of those obstacles is precisely dogmatic philosophy, there are so many philosophies in the world and each adherent thinks they have the absolute truth according of what their favorite philosophers said or wrote, some of them even quote philosophers as if they have the absolute truth, and at the same time despise all sciences (except social sciences of course), saying things like “all empirical facts are false”, considering that, if you really want to give magic some validation you should take the method of science, because the only proofs magic have are the empirical ones (like science), and by accepting that you are automatically divorcing of all relationship between magic and philosophy. In my view, magic has more of science than of philosophy, that’s why I mention the results issue, it’s because the real and practical utility the thing that correlates magic and science, but of course, if you say a philosopher that, he would probably argue “practical things are a myth”, but at the same time they can’t avoid live by practical rules and practical facts, so his theories just remain in paper or in words, these are some reasons why I consider philosophy just mental masturbation and why in my opinion it would never reconciliate with science or magic. But, as I wrote peviously, in some cases can provide a subjective synthesis to move forward, an example that comes to my mind is the book of Timothy “Black Magic” who can help to do that to novices.

[quote=“Greyhat, post:21, topic:6537”][quote=“Black Flame, post:16, topic:6537”]So this would suggest that we are giving them energy, which through they channel themselves to this world - and what we gain from them in this world is actually channeled through energy provided by us ?

I would be amazed is someone had actual prove of their theories, i value all speculation…[/quote]

I did not write about an energy loop of some sort. If this is your theory, you should give proof.

I wrote contact with “the real world” is entertaining for them, so they give something in order to increase the entertainment. If they give something you are more interested in contacting them and they have more fun. But you should be careful, some funny demons could try to take over.

If you need some proof send me your demon energy measuring equipment. I have non, sorry. :)[/quote]

What creates the contact to this world if not energy? you didn’t offer any explanation so i had to come up with something.

I know you don’t mean to provoke, but it would be helpful to understand your motivations, and why you asume that some things, specially magical related things has to “make sense” in a traditional ol logical way. Also, it seems you are afraid of magic taking characteristics of religion, but proselitizing is a characteristic of religion too, so let me ask, just for curiosity, do you think that you need to proselitize magic to make a better world? like some kind of global illumination? I know magic can open minds and maybe make a better world, but there are many cultural obstacles to make magic accepted, and one of those obstacles is precisely dogmatic philosophy, there are so many philosophies in the world and each adherent thinks they have the absolute truth according of what their favorite philosophers said or wrote, some of them even quote philosophers as if they have the absolute truth, and at the same time despise all sciences (except social sciences of course), saying things like “all empirical facts are false”, considering that, if you really want to give magic some validation you should take the method of science, because the only proofs magic have are the empirical ones (like science), and by accepting that you are automatically divorcing of all relationship betwwen magic and philosophy. In my view, magic has more of science than of philosophy, that’s why I mention the results issue, it’s because the real and practical utility the thing that correlates magic and science, but of course, if you say a philosopher that, he would probably argue “practical things are a myth”, but at the same time they can’t avoid live by practical rules and practical facts, so his theories just remain in paper or in words, these are some reasons why I consider philosophy just mental masturbation and why in my opinion it would never reconciliate with science or magic. But, as I wrote peviously, in some cases can provide a subjective synthesis to move forward, an example that comes to my mind is the book of Timothy “Black Magic” who can help to do that to novices.[/quote]

You had good points, but if you think science is 100% right and philosophy is just mental masturbation i think we have way too different knowledge for communicating with each other - for sake of yourself i suggest you to read enormous amount more of both. Philosophy means love of wisdom, and seeking of truth - while science is just one tool for that.

My motives are that i want to know what i’m doing, i’m surprised if no one else feels stupid by doing stuff they don’t even understand.

[quote=“Black Flame, post:24, topic:6537”]You had good points, but if you think science is 100% right and philosophy is just mental masturbation i think we have way too different knowledge for communicating with each other - for sake of yourself i suggest you to read enormous amount more of both. Philosophy means love of wisdom, and seeking of truth - while science is just one tool for that.

My motives are that i want to know what i’m doing, i’m surprised if no one else feels stupid by doing stuff they don’t even understand.[/quote]

One can reach understanding doing things, not just reading about them, you can read a lot of erotic literature but if you didn’t have sex you don’t know it, you can read a lot about Paris but you can’t know how it feels being actually there, you don’t know if really exist, with magic is the same. I guess you get my point. And let me tell you, you don’t know if I understand or not what I’m doing, but my understanding can differe of yours (and I am sure it does), and as you asume that I am saying that science is 100% right or that I didn’t read about science or philosophy, I can asume that you never practiced magic and you are just an armchair “magician” because that kind of doubts are obviously the ones of someone who are afraid of jumping to the water without asking all kind of things.

[quote=“drragon712, post:25, topic:6537”][quote=“Black Flame, post:24, topic:6537”]You had good points, but if you think science is 100% right and philosophy is just mental masturbation i think we have way too different knowledge for communicating with each other - for sake of yourself i suggest you to read enormous amount more of both. Philosophy means love of wisdom, and seeking of truth - while science is just one tool for that.

My motives are that i want to know what i’m doing, i’m surprised if no one else feels stupid by doing stuff they don’t even understand.[/quote]

One can reach understanding doing things, not just reading about them, you can read a lot of erotic literature but if you didn’t have sex you don’t know it, you can read a lot about Paris but you can’t know how it feels being actually there, you don’t know if really exist, with magic is the same. I guess you get my point. And let me tell you, you don’t know if I understand or not what I’m doing, but my understanding can differe of yours (and I am sure it does), and as you asume that I am saying that science is 100% right or that I didn’t read about science or philosophy, I can asume that you never practiced magic and you are just an armchair “magician” because that kind of doubts are obviously the ones of someone who are afraid of jumping to the water without asking all kind of things.[/quote]

I can’t answer anything to you anymore if you assume that :), i’m sure we both assume exactly same things about each other so sadly this conversation died for us. As we don’t know each other its better that way we just stop here when it comes to you and me.

Ok. Good luck with your search. I was curious to get more deeply in your motivations to try to point you in the right direction (my good action of the day), but I failed lol.

Uhh, tried to explain my motivations here many times.

IMHO this belongs into the “we don’t know yet” class of potential knowledge.

Did radioactivity exist before we were able to measure it?

I stay in the shadows regarding my practice as I don’t wish to get involved in some deep discussion explaining myself to outsiders who have no idea, or respect for what we do. I also have no desire to be the target of their ignorance unless they were genuinely interested in the occult and magic in general. I would answer your question Black Flame by saying, if you are comfortable speaking about your craft and you have established a good foundation with it, not to mention have solid experience then by all means discuss it with others when the situation arises, but to walk down the street with a banner singing its praises when there was no true call for it is just asking for trouble in my opinion.

If it is important to spread our agenda, how can i assure someone that you are able to contact spirits which are able to contact this realm for i still can't even explain myself 100% what is real

Magic, especially the dark variety usually comes looking for us when the time is right for it to infiltrate our lives with its deep wisdom and energy. If you have to explain this to someone then they are simply not ready yet, let alone open to its effects. The forces of true magic don’t need to prove anything or give us any sign to validate its efficiency (When the student is ready, the master will appear my friend). This same situation occurs with newcomers as they always want prove of its power when in reality, if you have to ask this question then you are not ready to use it, or if you do then you are only trying to prove its falsity as you don’t believe in it and therefore, magic or the spirits will prove you right by giving you what you expect, which in this case would be nothing.

when i mentioned about magic for monetary purpose for an example, the guy i was discussing with said that " That can be bad, one can come falsely sure of their spiritual power and be in debt to something.................................. if i am in debt, how can i know this? and how can i know can i pay the debt

If you truly want what you ask for from the spirits, and are willing to act in accordance with these requests then that is all you need to do as a mark of respect. You can never be in debt to them, only a burden to yourself for not honouring their help, which in turn can weaken your relationship with them.

what do you guys see "True spiritual power" as, and what are all the ways you are willing to describe that this will manifest in physical realm

True spiritual power in a black magical sense for me is about ‘POWER’…power starts with knowledge and the spirits can teach you many things that most outsiders wouldn’t even realise exist. Power is also about the ability to act and take control of your life and circumstances for the benefit of yourself and all others concerned. You manifest this in your life through belief in yourself and your craft, and by acting in a congruent manner that reflects this.

how can you filter false and real information on spirituality, as there surely has to be many who wish to blind us

Initially, you must deal with spirits you have an affinity with. Work with one god or demon as your main guidance and built a rapport with them so it develops into a good relationship. You can then start asking them for advise and they will give you their honest opinions. This happens in our physical relations just the same way as you wouldn’t ask a stranger for personal advice, but you would ask a dear friend for his honest opinion and you know he would give it you in a way that doesn’t try to hurt you.

So much spiritual contact can easily collide or get corrupted from other sources in the early stages of communication, so built a good rapport with your chosen spirit initially before you start asking for help with important knowledge, or more serious intentions then you can be assured of its authenticity. I would also mention here that you should never try to TEST its validity out as this could easily be to your detriment. Ask questions you truly want to know, not silly fucking questions for the sake of it, or to try and test its worthiness or this just suggests that you don’t believe in it ~ which is another reflection on the second question?

The spirit helps us because we have put out a genuine request for help and it loves to get involved in our lives because it can take energy from us that isn’t available in their realm and reap the benefit of it. It can’t take payment of money as this is just a form of credit in our world so money has no effect in theirs. When we ask for something, the spirits truly want us to succeed because they can gain immensely from this transaction?

To get you to understand this, Imagine someone asked you for advise and they acted upon it and this provided a satisfactory conclusion. This would make them feel good but it would also make you feel good as well. You would in effect, be feeding off their success and you would also gain because of this yourself in personal ways. This is how spirits take their ‘dues’ as no physical payment could ever satisfy their nature. They feed from the energy off our success my friend.

I hope I have answered your questions adequately enough to allow you to either understand from my own point of view, or indeed get you to explore your own ideas more through these opinions…Safe Journeys.

Savo thanks for answering with a long post… Yeah i thought about that spirits might help human for the same reason as humans help humans, but in reality humans help humans so that they will gain alliance of those humans :smiley: - but maybe the spirits can feed of the satisfactory more straightforward than humans.

The spiritual experiences are usually so psychedelic that it takes time to get deep answers like this from it, at least in form that is understood in mundane life - but i think it has to do with energetic gateways and vortexes that work in mysterious ways, until we understand the mystery more accurately.

If this is how you truly feel, then you have my sympathy, and you should meet better people. I help people for any number of reasons: love, compassion, empathy, etc. If I pull over to help someone change a flat tire in the rain, it’s because I’ve been there, and I know it sucks ass. I ask, and expect, nothing in return. I believe spirits help us for reasons of a similar nature.

So much of magick is about taking a leap of faith. There are far more questions than answers. Most of it, we’ll never have answers for. Some magickal “theory” seems to be pretty sound, i.e., it seems to work that way every time, for everybody. Other aspects of “theory” seem less concrete. It works for some, but not others.

I will say what Savodonger wrote is exactly what I would have written, concerning “spreading the word” about magick. Him in I are in total agreement on that. It’s no one’s fucking business what I do, and I refuse to waste time and energy “proving” something that I know I can’t. The proof is in direct experience, and direct experience is subjective, with no objective means of proof.

Take that leap of faith, my friend.

Chef, there is no sympathy in the way you are in illusion to believe it is.

Sympathy and empathy has evolved to us so the bigger monkey wouldn’t bash our skulls when we eat rape and eat he’s children.

The only reason for helping others in subconcious mind is that we will later gain help from them, or that the society will see us as “valuable” so forth will keep us alive because we are needed.

I don’t believe there is unconditional anything, still those things can be beautiful and you don’t have to feel “sorry” because world is like this.

We will have to agree to disagree.

If that is what you want, i want the truth.

The rule of business is you get SOMETHING back, but only something you value more - this is like when people have hobbies, they pay for materials etc., for no profit in return, because they LOVE the task of making their models or crafts.

Same as posting here, none of us get paid but we’re happy to share experiences or try and help people because we love the subject and the joy of passing things along… this pre-dates business and goes back to instinctual parenting behaviours, and then later into love and wanting to see what you value the most, flourishing. :slight_smile:

Let me phrase my meaning again, re-compiled so you may understand it better - READ THE WHOLE THING, or don’t read it at all.

First of all i don’t come here to ask these questions as a novice, as a someone who doesn’t know anything of this - i asked less questions and more solutions then, but now when i have experienced a small number of spiritual/magick related events i feel the need to know more about what i’m into, so i won’t be just fooling myself… One of my most important principles is to arise all the sheep who will follow the sheepherder in illusion, most of you probably are these sheeps is just a cold fact.

But the ones who aren’t here just for fun, but are after real progress, real power, and real knowledge might want to think and answer to my questions - i realize that the way i write or did write, may seem a bit posh but i don’t mean to sound like that… It just sometimes comes off like that by accident.

So my point is that lets say for an example we summon a demon, and we see it or hear it at some point - can i prove this real for myself? because if we only keep reassuring ourselves that it is, and it becomes self-suggestion then we would be better off with NLP if it doesn’t matter is magic “real magic” for me it matters, and don’t get me wrong i doubt even the existence of the world i am seeing.

But i’m just one of those guys who wants to understand everything behind what i’m doing, for i’m probably seeking more than many of us here are… Some might say they are, but their words and real passions don’t correspond.

I seek power and wisdom, earthly and spiritual - both forever lasting and illuminating.

The reason my comments don’t get likes is not that i ask the wrong questions, its that you don’t want these questions to be asked. But if anyone wants to get really further, all questions must be asked…

So the question could be: Have you found a way to learn the truth about spirit’s agenda, and existence. If you did; how - what proves to you what is real, and what you can trust without anything bad hidden for you.

It does matter is it real, otherwise we would be creating ourselves mental disorders. I believe more in spirits than mental disorders, but that doesn’t matter right now when i’m questioning this.

You have two choices - spiritual/moral absolutes in which “wrong”/non-compliance is punished/banned/invalidated - or intellectually honest, secure, open exploration, in which absolutes may not be obvious, may not even exist.

Choose one.

But please respect the time people spend replying, and don’t get your Viking on like that!

So my point is that lets say for an example we summon a demon, and we see it or hear it at some point - can i prove this real for myself?

Yes - by results.

The magickal R word - without results, it’s religion, fake, lies.

If you’re not getting results, troubleshoot why.

But the results should be constant, and it still doesn’t answer for real why does the result come and what the spirit gets from it - yes you have tried to tell me, but i’m after the actual process why so it cant be put off by just “its self suggestion, makes you get those things for yourself” or “sleeping paralyzis” is just a dream. Well i don’t say that dreams aren’t real in some stage but i’m pretty sure things seen in sleeping paralyzis are of very intense aspect, how can i prove this is that i have my day concious and something else awaken at the same time - but even i couldn’t at this moment explain it better.

I don’t think i have been dissrespecting but for countless of times i have felt like when i write something to this forum, someone just boredly skims the whole text picks up couple parts without even trying to understand what i’m saying - and assumes that i’m somehow attacking against the whole forum and magic, or whatever… While i’m actually trying to awake everyone even more to be even more interested in the actual occult the secret science behind it all, not just some new-age wicca style of stuff “we just do this because its cool”

Like i said in the previous message, i don’t want to sound snobbish/posh arrogant - it just might come off like that, i mean good here.

Maybe i’m asking questions that only should be asked of high spirits, but my AP is not developed enough.- Or for real what is not developed enough is my bravery to develop it, i remember asking bravery from Lucifer in my last night’s dream. ( I think it was bravery for occult, although the whole dream had mass murders and shit happening anyways )

There’s this concept, “What the thinker thinks, the prover proves” - try applying that to what you’re saying/asking?

I’m not saying that in an argumentative/harsh way by the way, tone and meaning are hard to convey onoine. :slight_smile: