Intense questions (Philosophical and Spiritual)

I consider that i have been pretty silent and non-existant on this forum for few days now, and that’s because i have been feeling that there is nothing to say or that i sometimes say too much. Also the variety of discussion here can be confusing (its all good, but i mean that it requires a lot of filtering and critique from the reader)

Well i should have critique and filter since i got 9/10 out of my first philosophy course, but the questions that follow are philosophical in nature too and i hope we can discover more on them together.

I. First i want to start this conversation by mentioning that this was kind of leaded by paranoid feelings and anxiety attacks, sort of intense despair that nothing could help me and i don’t know anything for sure… It was a passing feeling but it led me to this.

A) this led me to some philosophical discussions with people whose company i got myself into for purpose of forgetting my anxiety, first of all my question is is it more of a requirement or a deep NO when it comes to spreading our agenda about left hand path spiritualism ?

B) If it is important to spread our agenda, how can i assure someone that you are able to contact spirits which are able to contact this realm for i still can’t even explain myself 100% what is real - i wish someone answered me more than “its just better to believe everything is real” since i’m looking for answer that will fulfill me and i can build on.

  1. In these discussions when i mentioned about magic for monetary purpose for an example, the guy i was discussing with said that " That can be bad, one can come falsely sure of their spiritual power and be in debt to something" (kind of bad translation but you get the point ) i naturally didn’t admit that i don’t know 100% either, i kinda just said “but that’s what everyone wants you to think so you wouldn’t ask for anything”

But i guess here i can ask the question that if i am in debt, how can i know this? and how can i know can i pay the debt - and i do honor the spirits as higher rank officers/royals so i do want to act as they require but i also respectfully demand if i can say so… rights for myself.

Simply what do you guys see “True spiritual power” as, and what are all the ways you are willing to describe that this will manifest in physical realm?

Its funny that the people i was discussing with are kind of narsistic and annoying in that way, but i’m sure they had difficult thoughts for me to ingest since i’m still thinking of this. Also i do apologize that i didn’t explain better who these or this particular person was since i don’t think it has anything to do with these questions.

Bonus question is how can you filter false and real information on spirituality, as there surely has to be many who wish to blind us ?

Lets start with these and i hope we get some serious discussion and solutions going on for everyone, even if i even personally at the same time think that its sort of wrong to discuss these on a public forum… still lets do that…

And here is one example of a sect that sees occult purely tapping into yourself, i’d like to get counter-arguments by people who are assured that spiritual forces are external beings.

http://www.thesectofthehornedgod.com/

It could be said that one reaches that which is Without, through that which is Within.

Care to to try and explain more?
Not sure what you are trying to say.

Using magick to help with monetary gain is surely not a bad thing.

So no one has yet understood even single one of these questions, i’m trying to help us all out here.

And to cogitation, ok maybe you understood it - but i’m too autistic to understand your riddles. " You can reach something that you lack, by tapping into something that is within you " ? which is this supposed to answer, less is not always more.

DeathWish, the person who asked about this said that don’t i think i get “in debt” to the universum by asking so much from it. So maybe a metaphora of classic christian question “you will be in debt with devil” would be an extreme case of alike question.

The problem was i can’t really say am i in “debt” or not, and i was pointing out that it might not be so horrible to be in debt, but what do you think - are you in debt? if you are how ? if not, why ?

what I understand is that there’s no debt if we do not owe. Feeling in debt, you mean the feeling caused by something that just emerged demanding for answers to questions and that always bother you and have put you in deep thought, (if i’m right) is not debt itself. And your search for what it is to build up yourself, the answer is the riddle that you’ve mentioned. It’s deep inside.

If it does not offend you, you may want to decode the named Christian Bibles’ The Beginning. It talks about every beginning. And if you offer it time, you’ll soon understand yourself.

Here are some of my thoughts about this.

I would say that even if there are external beings, the only way we can really reach them or communicate with them is through our internal sense perceptions. Fundamentally the only things we can percieve are through our senses. Even with direct clairvoyant knowing all the way down to touching something with our hands, all these things are reflected first in our inner conscious awareness before we can have any experience of them.

So the inner sense mastery is foundational whether dealing with the inner or the outer.

[quote=“NariusV, post:7, topic:6537”]Here are some of my thoughts about this.

I would say that even if there are external beings, the only way we can really reach them or communicate with them is through our internal sense perceptions. Fundamentally the only things we can percieve are through our senses. Even with direct clairvoyant knowing all the way down to touching something with our hands, all these things are reflected first in our inner conscious awareness before we can have any experience of them.

So the inner sense mastery is foundational whether dealing with the inner or the outer.[/quote]

Yes this i understand, but i seek something out of myself here. as it is me who is one of those who has least evidence of outer world - For i sayeth to the guy who i was discussing/arguing/talking with that how can i then know that anyone exists but me? and he tried to justify this by “classical music” but i think its purely possible that i could have imagined things that seem abstract and complicated to this part of my mind - also if there was external this could be an illusion world made by “demon” or “the god”-’’

I hope you guys understand what i’m after here, i’m after evidence of external- here the evidence can be even good reasoning. An answer that would satisfy philosophers.

I hope we can build together, and find false and strong points from each others views… or is this forum really too non-personal for this kind of mission?

Don’t listen to people who say it’s wrong to do magic for money.

The spirits actually told me not to do serious magic for people unless I’m getting something good in return and even went as far as to say I was undercharging, for something I did in the 100’s when it should have been in the thousands. I think they know what their talking about.

As for external vs internal why does it matter? I mean I kinda get annoyed when I fight something and it turns out to be part of myself because it makes it feel like I’m living in an M night Shyamalan movie, but beyond that annoyance as long as stuff works it shouldn’t matter.

Magick is the art of manipulating the statistical outcome of a process the sorcerer interacts with by will. Magick makes the improbable probable.

If your magick doesn’t work in improbable events, like waking up naked on a public train station toilet (no robe, no tools no alchemical equipment) it is not real magick. :wink:

Does “Do what thou wilt” mean to sit down, relax and enjoy the show?

For me magick is more like an exosceleton helping me to get a job done. It amplifies my possibilities.

If the answers to that kind of questions would enhance the magical results I would think they are worth pursuing, but I am sure they don’t, so the only thing that matters in magick is results. Philosophy is useless unless it provide some kind of subjective (because all philosophy is subjective) synthesis to move forward, philosophers are like dogs chasing their own tails and smelling each other asses. But to answering your questions I would say:

“Can you reach something that you lack, by tapping into something that is within you ?”

Yes, because that you lack can be hidden, obstructed and neglected even within you.

“and i was pointing out that it might not be so horrible to be in debt, but what do you think - are you in debt? if you are how ? if not, why ?”

All changes requires some sacrifices, like the eggs and the omelette adage says, that’s it, some people consider that a payment has to be a kind of gratitude to the powers involved, others like myself consider that with ones actions are contributing or helping the powers to make the changes.

In my experience yes, there are forces and beings external to us, but most people don’t have what is required to perceive that, that’s why in magic there are requeriments, like the magical training or the reaching of certain states of consciousness to be capable of perceive them and interact with them.

If only thing that matters to you guys is results later you might as well be an athlete who eats at mcdonalds and drinks bottle of vodka everyday and wonders why is he not evolving because “it feels good at the moment is only thing that matters”

So i think the philosophy and reality behind everything matters if you truly want to be in charge, or even be associated in most minimal sense with those who are in charge… You will have to know at least what is it that you are controlling.

This is my reasoning, i’m sure you can find some of the same questions in yourself.

If we are not in debt, then we are probably giving something or providing something at that moment we don’t even see we are doing - its not necessarily bad at all, but would be good to know.

I’m seeking a perfect balance here. Otherwise this is just like a religion.

In my opinion, the answer is - what’s in it for you?

Obviously BALG the business has a decent incentive to promote LHP spirituality and philosophies, because that’s how they make a living, and good on them for that.

They also educate people, which helps them shake off the shackles of fear-based religions, as reading “Lords Of The Left-Hand Path” by Stephen Flowers directly and massively helped me. It is hard to see a truth, see other people labouring under a lie, and NOT wish to help them!

Do you stand to personally gain by telling other people all about the LHP, even if just from satisfaction or other non-material means?

Since the LHP isn’t a religion that insists other people MUST think as we do, or be damned, whether or not you promote LHP ideas is down to your own personal situation and in each case might be different - for example, you’re not “liberating” some old lady who’s devoted to her church if she’s completely happy, you’ll just freak her out and make her worried about you. So, judge it case by case.

Just remember, you can’t UN-tell people something, so once you’ve outed yourself, you’re likely to find people bugging you in order to prove to themselves that THEY were correct, including by trying to trip you up, make you look foolish, draw you into straw-man arguments, etc - this has happened to every person ever who tried to explain or promote a minority/unpopular concept.

For this reason, if you ever embark upon trying to explain the LHP to people, I propose you learn their arguments and familiarise yourself with their beliefs at least as thoroughly as you know your own, so you can’t be tripped up, and so you’ll recognise where they’re coming from. :slight_smile:

B) If it is important to spread our agenda, how can i assure someone that you are able to contact spirits which are able to contact this realm for i still can't even explain myself 100% what is real - i wish someone answered me more than "its just better to believe everything is real" since i'm looking for answer that will fulfill me and i can build on.

In this specific example, IMO there’s no point trying to convince people magick is real until you’re 100% sure yourself.

2. In these discussions when i mentioned about magic for monetary purpose for an example, the guy i was discussing with said that " That can be bad, one can come falsely sure of their spiritual power and be in debt to something" (kind of bad translation but you get the point ) i naturally didn't admit that i don't know 100% either, i kinda just said "but that's what everyone wants you to think so you wouldn't ask for anything"

Does he mean like, you’d owe the spirit and later it has a right to come and collect?

If so then he’s operating from the paradigm that all spirits (except maybe a “God”) are malevolent and tricksterish.

Again, your own experience + learning his paradigm will help you with that. In the meantime, avoid certainties and explain you’re learning and experimenting yourself.

But i guess here i can ask the question that if i am in debt, how can i know this? and how can i know can i pay the debt - and i do honor the spirits as higher rank officers/royals so i do want to act as they require but i also respectfully demand if i can say so... rights for myself.

You might be best avoiding trying to argue your case to people if it leaves you with doubts like this.

“Yes, demons own your soul now, yadda-yadda…” :wink: Do you see what I mean?

3. Simply what do you guys see "True spiritual power" as, and what are all the ways you are willing to describe that this will manifest in physical realm?

My definition: the ability to control chains of events in the material world with the same ease as I can control events in a daydream.

This is on a continuum (i.e., not pass/fail - you get closer with experience, power, and practise) and will usually come through existing channels, for example if I want a new car, I should work on methods that are known to be likely to bring a car by normal methods (money, gifts, competitions etc) and not expect it to ping into existence overnight in my driveway.

Bonus question is how can you filter false and real information on spirituality, as there surely has to be many who wish to blind us ?

Personal experience is the only way, and also the only way to understand how answers like “X happens in your paradigm, whilst Y happens in mine” are actually legit.

Lady E, thanks for your answer - i hope more will come, because i’m interested in your opinions.

But what still confuses me is, why does the spirit help if it gets nothing from us in exchange ? that would make no sense, it must see that it actually gets more in exchange than what it gives… That is the rule of business.

They get in contact with “the real world”. Maybe “the other side”, not to be incarnated, is a little boring for them. We are entertaining toys. And maybe it means hope to get back into the game for them.

They get in contact with “the real world”. Maybe “the other side”, not to be incarnated, is a little boring for them. We are entertaining toys. And maybe it means hope to get back into the game for them.[/quote]

So this would suggest that we are giving them energy, which through they channel themselves to this world - and what we gain from them in this world is actually channeled through energy provided by us ?

I would be amazed is someone had actual prove of their theories, i value all speculation… But would be even more amazing if someone had very concrete explanation why is it like this. So we can understand and base our actions on that.

Because that’s the way it is. But don’t listen to me, after all according to philosophy: “all empirical facts are false” of course.

You must notice, when you say: “that would make no sense”, you are prejudging and you are trying to impose your subjective and philosophical opinions based in your own prejudices.

[quote=“Black Flame, post:12, topic:6537”]If only thing that matters to you guys is results later you might as well be an athlete who eats at mcdonalds and drinks bottle of vodka everyday and wonders why is he not evolving because “it feels good at the moment is only thing that matters”

So i think the philosophy and reality behind everything matters if you truly want to be in charge, or even be associated in most minimal sense with those who are in charge… You will have to know at least what is it that you are controlling.

This is my reasoning, i’m sure you can find some of the same questions in yourself.

If we are not in debt, then we are probably giving something or providing something at that moment we don’t even see we are doing - its not necessarily bad at all, but would be good to know.

I’m seeking a perfect balance here. Otherwise this is just like a religion.[/quote]

I’ve already given my views on this, and those views is everything including us is both sort of real and sort of not real at the same time.The same could be said about being seperate and being a part of the same thing.

But if your reason for wanting to know is to get in contact with the highest governing power of the reality we observe, my advice would be to ask Ganesh or maybe Legba to get you in contact with it, they know what it is.

[quote=“defectron, post:18, topic:6537”][quote=“Black Flame, post:12, topic:6537”]If only thing that matters to you guys is results later you might as well be an athlete who eats at mcdonalds and drinks bottle of vodka everyday and wonders why is he not evolving because “it feels good at the moment is only thing that matters”

So i think the philosophy and reality behind everything matters if you truly want to be in charge, or even be associated in most minimal sense with those who are in charge… You will have to know at least what is it that you are controlling.

This is my reasoning, i’m sure you can find some of the same questions in yourself.

If we are not in debt, then we are probably giving something or providing something at that moment we don’t even see we are doing - its not necessarily bad at all, but would be good to know.

I’m seeking a perfect balance here. Otherwise this is just like a religion.[/quote]

I’ve already given my views on this, and those views is everything including us is both sort of real and sort of not real at the same time.The same could be said about being seperate and being a part of the same thing.

But if your reason for wanting to know is to get in contact with the highest governing power of the reality we observe, my advice would be to ask Ganesh or maybe Legba to get you in contact with it, they know what it is.[/quote]

Too early for me to get into such actions, i’m sure there are many ways to it - but the hastiest way is not always the best… or even usually.

Because that’s the way it is. But don’t listen to me, after all according to philosophy: “all empirical facts are false” of course.

You must notice, when you say: “that would make no sense”, you are prejudging and you are trying to impose your subjective and philosophical opinions based in your own prejudices.[/quote]

But we are not here to point out my mistakes, or to argue - i don’t mean to provoke (at least in bad way) with this conversation… But i wish that everyone would question, and seek answers as i sometimes feel that our campaign of magic is in danger to take characteristics of a religion.