I Am Beginning To See Issues With Tantric Deities Being Employed In Wiccan Practice

General Discussion
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I’m beginning to see buddhist deities and Dharma as incompatible with wicca and I have had some buddhist tell me that it cannot be done. I don’t want to appear new agey or try to appropriate anything. But I do wonder about this as the Buddhist view seems way to pacifistic and doesn’t seem to honor the four stages of life or divisions of labor (forget the evil caste system that came out of that. I have nothing to do with that at all as that is a perversion of what it was originally meant to be which was just four divisions of labor based on what the family profession was that a child was born into.)

According to the buddhist scriptures, we are to be renunciates and be so compassionate that we be able to sit still and let someone cut our limbs off, refusing to fight back, or we should be able to sacrifice our own body to feed a starving animal. That’s not what Hindus or Pagans believe so I wonder if it’s even worth working with Buddhist deities anymore. There’s the issue of the gurus saying that without their empowerment, the deities are powerless or we can develop a wrong view. I feel like its more about control than anything because you are expected to treat a guru like they can do no wrong while they are pretty much able to do whatever they want to you.I see that as a red flag. Plus they say its nearly impossible to learn tantra from books alone.

So there are many issues I am now seeing, unless it all can be clarified. What if I do see the deities as real beings that can manifest in nature like pagan deities and animistic spirits? Is that wrong? It’s all about not seeing them as separate right? They are not separate from us or nature as I see and are very real beings that one can make offerings to. I know I have likely already violated the view by believing this way and pursuing tantra without initiation. They warn that tantra without initiation is dangerous to do or even completely powerless. Though I do fear the possibility of experiencing the hellish bardos or evening having an imposter spirit pose as the deity rather than be working with the real one. That being said, I do wonder about the following issues and questions.

Can Buddhist deities be seen as real, both within you and as manifestations of nature like the pagan deities?

Can they be implemented into wicca?

Does a buddhist have to be a complete renunciate not giving any heed to family life or duties of mundane and civil matter?

Must a buddhist be completely pacifist, not enacting punishment on anyone for sake of proper justice?

Can tantra be practiced without initiation?

Are the deities completely powerless without the empowerment and transmission? Every text I’ve ever looked at says you need the empowerment and transmission.

Can tantra be used to manifest desires or are you being worldly, perverting dharma and risk being born in lower realms or worse as Padmasambhava prophecies about the Kali Yuga when dharma will deteriorate and people will follow selfishness?

Is working with tantric deities considered cultural appropriation? I do not wish to do that?

These are some major issues that I have come across and would really love some advice by those who have practiced properly with tantra and not tried to just create some eclectic path. I have had issues with every pagan shop I’ve ever went into as no one really knows about this tradition or has practiced it. Most of them are eclectic, making up their own stuff, when I am looking for those who have practiced a genuine tradition. A lot of these practices do have rules to them and I try to keep everything in context of what it is supposed to be because appropriation starts when you bastardize something from its roots. I feel Wicca can be a framework for the practice as Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana seem very nature centered and there are a lot of shamanic elements within it. I have no connection to any western deities. They do not click. I don’t understand why I have connections to Asian deities when most of the practices are either closed due to initiation or the view is radically different, making it nearly impossible to practice while still pursuing interests of normal human nature like desire, family, and duties.

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It’s not up to him. Whatever you have between you and any entity is personal between you and nobody else’s business.

I’d agree you can’t just read a book on tantra and know it. That’s like reading a book on piano playing and deciding you can play Bach without practicing. It’s a physical art so you must roll up your sleeves and do it physically.

Yes buddhist entities can be seen as real personalities. Yes if can can bend into wicca. There’s no reason the wiccan nature beings couldn’t with alongside any other being you care to name. It’s nature. If there’s one thing Nature does, par excellence, it’s adapt.

The only way you’re going to find out for sure, for what works for YOU, is to get out of the armchair and try. Don’t let anybody’s theorizing or ideological issues dictate your truth.

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Not at all, Tantra is for all! It was practiced by all the castes in India, of course, in secret. But most of the traditions of Tantra like the Kaula tradition or the Kaulavalinirnaya, it was for everyone and personal experience with the Great Shakti (Mother Goddess/Divine Feminine). The transmission is more to anchor yourself in the lifestyle and energy of the respective Tantra tradition that you choose, it’s better to get used to the currents in there.

Buddhism is originally theological in faith, the “atheist" aspect of it comes later. The bodhisattvas can be petitioned and praised to help your spiritual journey. Their mission is to help humanity as whole, not just a set of people in a closed group.

I do not believe in “cultural appropriation", I see this more as way to justify apartheid and separation of cultures. I do believe that cultural disrespect exists, but it’s more about stereotyping people of other cultures and xenophobia.

Your religion and magick is a personal thing, and if you’re not doing it to get attention/in social media, there’s no justification to other people to interfere with your beliefs, this is what goes against the Constitution. I would recommend listen them, but not to put their beliefs above yours. In the end, it’s your personal experience that prevails.

If you follow an ascetic Buddhism, where you negate all of your life and pleasures that would be true… But Tantra, despite having a lot of Buddhist spirits and believes, is not tied to Buddhism. In Kaula Tantra, they follow that every aspect of our reality, being it spiritual and material, is an aspect of the Great Mother, and even if Mara was an illusion/dream it’s still a channel for you to experience the manifestation of the Divine here.

This is one interpretation of Kalima carrying a head or skull; it represents that she is not dominated by the Ego, but plays with it just as she plays with reality. This is one interpretation of Kalima carrying a head or skull; it represents that she is not dominated by the Ego, but plays with it just as she plays with reality. Our World can be seen as the same thing, we humans are to love, experience and play here in this World, not to pollute it or to escape it like it is a prison. We have, instead, to learn how to live with it and experience the multitude of things with our power as sorcerers. “The Will to love, is the Will to live”

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Good advice.Yes practice is the right to do things. Good analogy with the musical instrument.

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And that’show I see it. A path should be life affirming for maximum benefit.