My man I completely understand what you are coming from. I have a very good grasp and understanding on palo and palo cruzado. There are many varia ruins of palo and even more of we include some of the Kim bands linage than has adapted palo in their practices. Yet registros are don in palo that is a consultation to the mpungo through the nfumbe of the prenda. We can cal this consultation guidance by spirit and thus they are serving as spirit guides. Like I stated before I understand you position as a religionists. I can understand you adherence to your creed and dogma. I canāt understand however is your insistence in denying something without even experimenting or researching the reality of the situation. Blessings to you.
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Actually I am a student of espiritismo cruzado as well! Once again palo is palo , ifa is ifa and espirtismo is espiritismo. They are in separate categories
I can understand your point. But we can all be grouped in Congo inspired practice. I mean to call palo ātraditionalā is not appropriate since all palo are adaptations and new practices inspired on traditional African practices. Espiritismo cruzado is an new development of French spiritism from the turn of the century and African practices. Thus not traditional and a novelty. Whether the new development is spirit inspired or the child of necessity is debatable. What is not is the fact that palo is a new development and frame of practice from older African, more specifically Congo, practices that due to necessity and location where adapted, reinvented and modified to fit the new circumstances. Thatās my point, Iām not saying that if someone practices something inspired in palo mayombe he is a palero, no, but I canāt sit in a high chair and vomit the same dogma ridden phrases so abundant in palo and atr circles. Iām all about fearless experimentation that fearful dogma propagation. I say give your inner guide a try if it works good share it. If it donāt you live and you learn.
My dude I appreciate your devotion and your love for the religion but please donāt fall for the churchianity syndrome. If there was only one way then everyone would be following it. The fact that many ways exist means that all hold part of the truth. Please donāt make your branch bigger by stepping on others. After all all religions say the same thing.
Hmm ok I understand what you mean yes many branches are into mixing and matching And adding what they learn as spiritualism to form something new. Although I have my own opinions my branch does not work spiritualism into the pot. In fact when Iām referring to traditional Iām referring to Judia not christiano! Some of us actually have kept traditional kinganga close to intact!. I do not step on any other branch. Especially because we are all branches rooted from the same root. Certain things Iām allowed to discuss on this forum other info is secreto! But I do understand you ideas reminded me of andres petit and his approach which gave birth to Kimbisi. Yo soy no kimbisero!
Also when someone hears the word spiritualism we think good vs evil . The problem is Kinganga is neither of the two. There is no bad and good in palo. This is why in palo my friend we say without mooyo you have nunca! Mooyo means heart!
Sambia malongo yaya moangui
https://www.ashe.com.ve/foro/viewtopic.php?t=20253&start=30
The information on the link sadly for those who canāt read it, is in Spanish. There is wealth in that forum but also some posers. But you seem knowledgeable so I trust you can disern truth. My nfumbe likes you so I know your heart is in the right place. Now a common mistake is to say that andres petit created kimbiza. He created a variation of kimbiza known as El Santo Cristo del buen Viaje. In Thai rule catholisism was heavily included and he also reformed the secret society of Abakua. And he is responsible in part for the syncretism, from him we get ideas like putting ache in prendas, the 21 caminos of Lucero and the such.
Im not throwing tradition away but I donāt discard on changes caused by new information and unique personal revelations by the spirits. I also canāt discard a person who can practice palo inspired magic without initiation. Not the religion and not in the way a tata will do of course, but si se mayombe is a living and breathing tradition, all that breathes changes. We see it in our prendas, they grow with us. Only that which is dead donāt change. My brother Que Nsambi Acutare.
Nsambi acutare mi empangui. I have a question I mean I do t pretend to know all there is about palo. I recently met a palero a tata Nkisi that does not have a Lucero. In registros he was given the ok for rayamiento and year later the ok for rayamiento for tata but in all no Lucero. I can see that happening as in palo we go white what the Nganga says. But what are the thoughts of bother Paleroās here? And you too my brother.
Ummm Iām white and scratched and the spirits work with me fine.
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Ok what Rama is he from. Some people go straight to Tata nkisi nganga if they have prior experience working in palo. Technically lucero is not always given first in some houses but in mine yes you recieve after riemento.if a tata has a ganga already then yes he has von con licencia to initiate. He may have something other then his prenda. Does he have multiple prendas? He may keep his lucero somewhere else in the location!
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Sambia malongo yaya
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Nsambi acutare enpangui. He is from Kimbisa Monte not andres petit Kimbisa. He told me that in all registros he has done it comes out that he does not need a Lucero. Thus he donāt have one. In this Rama you only get what the prenda says, as he told me, so some donāt have liceros as the prenda determined he donāt need one while others instead of lucer receive gurunfinda or cuatro vientos ( which to my understanding is a flying Lucero). But he does have a very good looking Sarabanda and I mean if you are sensitive,as any who had practice other magickal system and then goes to palo, the power of being in front of his prenda is real. I mean evocation is very powerful but it does not compare to being infront of a real prenda de palo.
How many caminos Lucero have in your house? In mine we have only four but some of our Tatas have the luceros for the front of the prenda, that is a guide for the nganga.
Right remember Iām some paths lucero May be a full ganga. I have heard of this situation before.
In my house palo monte con mayombe, we have lucero and nkuyu. Lucero has 21 caminos
I read and heard some tatas say that the idea of Lucero having 21 paths comes from Yoruba and that Lucero in bakongo practice is just one, bit the again I could be mistaken either way in our house we have 4 luceros that can be given and cuatro vientos which is a type of Lucero but is made in a hanging guira with feathers.
By the way thanks.
Ok I understand your answer, you are absolutely correct in that some houses have a mix with santo and palo. What I can tell you is this their are as many luceros as there are people. Some would laugh at that! There really is no specific on lucero or nkuyu. If your initiated then you know why! Now the luceros you mentioned I am aware of. To ask this question is to recieve the answer no con licencia . Itās a question you should ask your Tata. But I do appreciate the question.
Sambia Tolendo Sambia Takutare Yave Sambe malongo yaya
Sala malecum brother and thanks for the answer. I understand what you mean by being as many luceros as there are of people. I took your answer to see it. I understand. I called my tata and he cleared many things. Iām just asking and learning. Iām up for tata scratching so I need to get my act straight. The prenda thinks Iām ready and Iām grateful and humbled by it but at the same time I feel I need more knowledge. But yo confĆo en mi muerto.
Nsala Malecum brother. One question do you know where can I adquiere mercury. Here in Puerto Rico the suppliers of most things for Palo practice have closed down. So Iām looking for new suppliers.