Are any of the entities in the mastering evocation companion workbook from the Goetia? The workbook has a mishmash of demons and angels from all over the place it seems, I’m trying to avoid goetic entities.
I was reading this in a different forum… I don’t really agree on everything said but take a look:
"There is another thread running on the Forum now that I would like to point out to you. It is here:
I hope you think about what this guy is going through and it could be worse. I would never tell you not to work the Goetic system and deal with these rebellious entities. But, I will tell you that if it not approached in the right way you can create some real trouble both physically and mentally.
The circle is not enough alone. The circle seals your aura and your personal space. But, you have to go to the bathroom some time. Even if you do it correctly you could still have the equivalent of an invisible thug romping around your residence.
Regarding these ‘pacts,’ I would point out that this is a fairly modern innovation in magick. In the Middle Ages & the Renaissance magicians did not make pacts with the Devil. There are no authentic grimoires that have such a rite. Further, the idea is alien to the core of the Classical Hermeticism which is the bedrock of Western magic. The stories of pacts from the Witch Trials and are found in books like the Compendium Maleficarum. If a priest grabs your testicle with a red hot poker making them boiled eggs and asks when you sold your soul you will tell him anything he wants to hear. Now, you can evoke some demon or some lesser entity that will act like one and say “I’ll be your lunch” if you like. Some people enjoy being prey and if that makes you happy then I wish you luck. "
What makes you think the spirits in the Goetia are lesser entities? You need to get past the word “demon” and work with them from an empty slate and learn from them what you can, instead of coming at it with preconceived notions that they are going to eat your face off. There is a lot they can teach, you just have to be willing to take it all from a different perspective than the one you posted.
You realize that any spirit, demon or Angel, can fuck you up if you do everything completely wrong, right?
That guy who got fucked by Marbas didn’t have any intent, he was just randomly trying to call a demon. Real good idea!
This wasn’t really my perspective this was a quote of someone else’s point of view. I’m picky in life about the friends I hang out with, I’m going to be picky about spirits as well. Once I have evoked a spirit I have theoretically called that spirit into my existence for eternity. Meaning I have to hang out with that spirit when I leave this flesh. From what I’ve heard from multiple sources is that people usually end up struggling or regretting working with the Goetia. A mentor figure for me told me that demons teach lessons in hard ways.
Demons will give you what you want even if it’s not the best for you, like a drug dealer doesn’t care about you he’ll just sell you drugs. The consequences are yours.
The ‘demons’ in the Goetia are viewed as harsh because they view things from a broader perspective than we do on the physical, but so do angels and elemantals. The Goetics get a bad wrap from people who either have never worked with them or aproach them with disrespect. By the latter, those that treat them with disrespect say they are bad and must be constrained, and angels are nice and don’t need to be threatened. Yet they have always treated the angelic with respect, they would obviously respond similar. It stands to reason that if you treat the Goetics harshly they aren’t going to be very happy about it and respond accordingly. I’m not saying roll over for them, stand on your own, but that goes with any entity, demonic or angelic.
[quote=“Euoi, post:4, topic:3641”]You realize that any spirit, demon or Angel, can fuck you up if you do everything completely wrong, right?
That guy who got fucked by Marbas didn’t have any intent, he was just randomly trying to call a demon. Real good idea![/quote]
And this I can see happening. Go in with a clear view of want you want and treat them as a guest, and these things go much easier. As an example, Marbas is one I work with a lot, and he works well when I call him. Thank you Euoi for this example. It goes to show, one who most concider easy to work with, such as Marbas, can ruin your day if toyed with.
Edit: can’t say I wouldn’t respond the same if treated with angst, why would a spirit respone any differently to aggression or just flat ignorance?
Just get a copy of the Lesser Key of Solomon online and compare the list.
To answer your question plainly, even though spoon-feeding really ought not to be encouraged…No. Most of the entities given in the workbook are from Koetting’s own works (Kingdom of Flames and Book of Azazel). The exceptions being the “elemental Kings” and the archangels at the very beginning of the sigil section.
There is a mention of Belial, but nothing given in the sigil section.
Regardless, you really ought not to just pick a random sigil and decide to work with it so this is something you probably would have discovered when researching on the spirit you choose.
I’m not going to go into the whole goetia/demons thing with you even though I agree with what others have said above. If you don’t feel comfortable working with them then that’s fine and it ought not to be held against you. There are a wide variety of other entities to work with, more than you could possibly hope (or even want to) work with.
You are picky, you say, with people as well as demons.
That is good, in a way, because that means you are not just going to summon the demon with the coolest name (hopefully).
Considering that each of these entities dictate a large amount of spirits, combined with the “experience” they have from interacting with so many elements, each of the spirits from the Goetia should be considered fairly powerful.
You wanna hang with Satan or some spirit very high up on the ladder, that would be like interacting with royalty while being a fairly insignificant individual.
Demons teach hard lessons, so does God and the Angels.
Comparing morals with beings of that kind…is a little insulting.
Don’t compare sissy Christians and their travesty of a book with what God really is, what he teaches and what he strive to do.
God have to do harsh decisions and Angels have to go carry them out, all for some bigger plan, God is a fascist…
(If you check pretty much every pantheon, the gods have acted the same way: Work for Order.)
“Demons” I like to compare with capitalists, they strike deals and they help you provided that you help them, and they also work with a lot of hush hush.
I can already now say that most people who deal with demons have been, or are going to be, screwed.
I am talking about people who half-assedly make a mockery of summoning and summon some “cool” spirit.
Demons don’t do charity, and you need to show that you are a good partner to do business with.
You don’t barge in and just befriend the boss, you work your way up, you don’t “deserve” anything else.
I agree with them who have said that if the spirits described in the Goetia don’t suit you, then simply go somewhere else, to less reliable sources perhaps or set out to find an entity by yourself (they do appear at times without you calling out for them, and at times you don’t realize it).
But same thing there, even in reality, magic and spirits can have severe consequences and punish you if not showing adequate respect.
Devils and Demons may be harsh, or they may not be harsh…but so are pretty much all entities that hold any power and/or interest to help you.
- Goetia is a kind of magic, not a kind of spirit.
- Jewish, Christian and Muslim grimoires were “adapted” from Neo-platonic material. Angels were originally called “Intelligences.” Intelligences are mostly comprised of Air and govern macrocosmic influences. Infernal spirits are Intelligences with a larger portion of Fire, which makes them “lower,” closer to the material plane, feistier, or you might say “more human.” When Intelligences became Angels, then it was said that the lower or “Fallen” Angels were punished for their rebellion (with Lucifer/Venus) by having a portion of fire added to them so they could suffer and feel pain.
The job of infernal spirits is initiation - to teach you how to be a magician. Magic is a technology, and in every encounter with “demons,” or whatever you want to call them, the logic driving the encounter is a basic demonstration of how the technology works.
I personally haven’t found that to be true, as I mentioned elsewhere I got a lecture from Belial about my sex life, because he didn’t approve of some of it, and he’s supposed to be one of the “worst” demons, yet he clearly felt that simply having more of what I (and my partner) want wasn’t in our best interests (I disagree, and we respectfully disregarded that advice after talking it over, but I’m mentioning it because it’s relevant).
Also, Akatasha, a demon from ancient Persia, who I’ve been working with in the last few days is amazing for advice, solid concrete tips on things I can change to become a more effective magician and human being. I hate the term “life coach” but that’s an apt description of this entity, he’s awesome.
He kind of hacks my subconscious, by providing imagery that implants different thoughts that are more empowering. If/when I have the chance, I’ll post a lot more detail about him, so far he’s been worthy of nothing but praise from me.
Neither of those very different beings did the equivalent of giving a toddler all the sweeties she wants until she makes herself sick of them, either - and some of the advice Belial gave me that didn’t relate to sex was excellent, and I’ve taken it to heart.
Maybe it depends on what the magician wants, maybe people who are too thick or arrogant to listen to advice from what they think of as an “unclean” being do get the shittier kind of outcomes, but in my case it seems to be more a case of helping me become the person who can attain the goals I want, and then manage them with grace and accomplishment, and not throwing the goals at me and laughing as I struggle to cope.
I agree they don’t do “charity” and all this stuff is within the context of my major goals which are, arguably, “sinful” by the standards of the Church etc., AND I always treat spirits of any kind with respect, but still my experiences have been entirely positive and not in the lines of “look at all the shiny things they’re giving me, these guys must be great!” like some child being groomed by a pervert or something. They’ve been making me a better, stronger magician.