Don't Goetics Hate Being Constrained?

[quote=“Poete Maudit, post:20, topic:3066”]And just what has JSK accomplished with his magic?

For an allegedly practising magician he sure has precious little to say about it.[/quote]

Just because people don’t talk about their accomplishments doesn’t mean there aren’t any. If you brag about every great thing you’ve achieved in life perhaps you need to reevaluate your priorities. JSK, nor anyone else for that matter, is under any obligation to hold a press conference for every awesome thing they achieve with the occult arts. Furthermore…would you believe him if he did brag? No. You’d probably call him a pompous jerk for advertising every accomplishment he bragged about.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying completely.[/quote]

I’ll pm you, but I think you’re getting warmer. I feel you are mentally on the verge of understanding this.

[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:12, topic:3066"]Why don't you pay $200 dollars to E.A. just to have him tell you there isn't a method of coercing a spirit other than your own will. This is why you need to have knowledge of your own divinity and power to control the experience and not have some of the most incredibly powerful and volatile spiritual manifestations (composed purely of consciousness and omnipotence) destroy you outright. The only preparation for contacting such spirits, is successive gnosis from previous evocation until one knows one's own divinity and can claim it in the circle...If you use circles at all that is. Many here including myself don't really use them. I bought the universal circle, and until I understood it's true purpose, I loathed it's existence the way someone loathes putting gasoline into a hybrid car.[/quote]

I do not mean to offend you but judging from the quoted post, it seems you don’t know much about Grimoire Tradition or it’s use of magic circles. Most people (translated as most LHPers) look at it and all they see are the God Names, Angel names, sacred symbols and see the conjurations laced with Abrahamic dogma and they dismiss it as nothing more than that. There is a deeper spirituality going on within GT practice and it’s laid out in the cosmology of the circle which puts the magician at the center of the universe, which means he takes on Divine Authority. Might I direct you to taking a look at this definitive text on the circles we use in our art, their meaning and cosmology they represent:

Bardon said that it’s one of the greatest misconceptions that any of these things have any meaning and power unless the person drawing it out knows and recognizes it for what it is, otherwise none if it has any meaning. The most obvious intention of having the circle, was to make it visible that one was in accordance with “divine” or “universal will”…and that the symbols added on accordingly were used in line with the development of the magician and where he was in his own journey in understanding that. This is how I understand this tradition through him, but unlike Bardon I think such things are toys to play with until one is a master without need of a circle at all.
[url=http://ouroboros-press.bookarts.org/portfolio/magic-circles-in-the-grimoire-tradition/]http://ouroboros-press.bookarts.org/portfolio/magic-circles-in-the-grimoire-tradition/[/url]

Neither do Grimoire Traditionalists. Just because you have all the tools and can properly recite the conjurations does not ensure a successful evocation. Something deeper must be achieved first.

Where are you getting the notion that Grimoire Traditionalists believe that if all they do is plop down a properly drawn circle and recite some conjurations that success will follow? The untrained novice may think this, but then again, they’re novices and don’t know any better. But any GT magician who has had a successful manifestation will tell you that just having the right circle means little. Again, there is much more going on than just a cool looking circle and some fancy conjurations. I’d like to know where you’re getting this information from.

You got me, but since my first evocation (where something manifested physically), I have not used a circle, or felt one was necessary to work with the spirits I summoned. This is a fanciful illusion most occultists are happy to enjoy. The only exception being the universal circle.

What you expect to summon, is what you will, whether it be nothing at all, or something that wishes to destroy you. These things ride the preconceptions you call them in upon.

That’s what I’ve been most trying to impress upon everyone here, whether the grimore is most ancient or modern, what you expect to call, you will. Some grimores have a lot of blinds intentionally written in that are directly related to this.

Evoking people, is a different story, they come as they are, regardless of what you think you are pulling in. To do so requires this person’s true name, and acquiring it is not always the easiest of things to do, unless the person has given it out. I wouldn’t recommend giving yours out, especially to a demon, because being evoked and having idiots aim physical swords at you and attempt to constrain you, gets old after the first time it happens, and gives you some insight as to why spirits hate such practices so much. You may even end up getting angry enough at how you’re disrespected to try and kill these kind yourself.

[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:12, topic:3066"]If you think you can truly explore the potential of these practices in ritual by the manner of willy nilly slapping down random symbols of power and constraining the powers of your greatest allies by pissing them off, I'd like to sell you a super elite secret "hokey pokey binding" for the universal circle, after you perform this rite which constrains the spirits, you will find it will force all spirits to suck your dick and give you money forever and ever, and you'll win at all things including art, irony, and leet magix and become an ultimate god.[/quote]

Again I ask, where are you getting this information from?

Ellison gave me a very helpful copy and paste from that “mentor” of his on Amazon, it turned me into a super secret elite masonic magician.

It’s super elite secrets. It’s not for everybody. Didn’t you read Ellison’s posts man?

Okay you got me, I perhaps got a little carried away, but this is how I see what many people elsewhere are doing. This is how I see it, through the lenses of my own experience, and since I’m not doing what they are.

I hope that clears up any misconceptions.

Best of Luck,
-Frater Apotheosis

I got the PM. Thanks. I’ll definitely check out what you suggested, but like I said, why mess with a good thing?

I have a great respect for Bardon and his system of creating the “perfect magician” but it’s not necessarily Grimoire Tradition. Sure, it’s ceremonialism at it’s finest but he’s basically in a category of his own. With that, I don’t agree with everything Bardon says about the circle. Perhaps it’s true for his own gnosis, which works for his methods, but GT is something completely different.

No worries. And I’m glad you found a method that works for you that doesn’t require the use of a circle or other such tools. But what resonates with you may not be so for others, just as GT works well with me but most here abhor those methods.

I’m sorry I just can’t get behind this. It sounds so…new agey. Something that I’d find in a Llewellyn book at Barnes & Noble. Don’t take that the wrong way, I’m not trying to put you down or anything.

I can’t get behind this either. I never understood why modern authors try to purport that the classical grimoires contain blinds. Can you give me an example of such a blind because every tool I find in most of the grimoires I’ve read play a specific part and correlate to specific symbolism.

I won’t touch on this. I don’t know anything about, nor subscribe to the theory, of evoking living people.

[quote=“Frater Apotheosis, post:12, topic:3066”]Ellison gave me a very helpful copy and paste from that “mentor” of his on Amazon, it turned me into a super secret elite masonic magician.

It’s super elite secrets. It’s not for everybody. Didn’t you read Ellison’s posts man?[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! You made me spit out my Ciroc and sprite!! How can I pre-game properly with no liquor in my cup!

I’ve been at this for a while, and while I agree the circle, tools and words aren’t fully needed to have success as an experienced magician, I still use them. Once you can have direct communication with entities, they really aren’t needed. But where is the honor in that, where’s the romance, or the foreplay. I don’t use these things because I need to, but because I want to. I choose to honor the entities I work with, and show my respect, thus a show of honor is what I give them. And honestly, it is just like foreplay, a warm up before a work based on achieving gnosis. And it’s the way I will more than likely always do things. I am a ceremonial magician, not a master of yoga. I am both a physical and an energetic being, thus I use both, the physical ritual and energy work (and mental state) to achieve my goals. It’s my preference and the entities I work with are hopefully honored by my attempt.

I got the PM. Thanks. I’ll definitely check out what you suggested, but like I said, why mess with a good thing?[/quote] We could say the same thing about needing to take training wheels off our bikes, it looks pretty silly to those who’ve taken them off. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m trying to awaken the god within you.

[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:22, topic:3066"]Bardon said that it's one of the greatest misconceptions that any of these things have any meaning and power unless the person drawing it out knows and recognizes it for what it is, otherwise none if it has any meaning. The most obvious intention of having the circle, was to make it visible that one was in accordance with "divine" or "universal will"...and that the symbols added on accordingly were used in line with the development of the magician and where he was in his own journey in understanding that. This is how I understand this tradition through him, but unlike Bardon I think such things are toys to play with until one is a master without need of a circle at all.[/quote]

I have a great respect for Bardon and his system of creating the “perfect magician” but it’s not necessarily Grimoire Tradition. Sure, it’s ceremonialism at it’s finest but he’s basically in a category of his own. With that, I don’t agree with everything Bardon says about the circle. Perhaps it’s true for his own gnosis, which works for his methods, but GT is something completely different.


Yes it is, because if followed to the letter the works are doomed to failure, a lot was coded in secrecy and only really truly adept magicians can see what’s written in there at all. I dropped the word “blind”, you should do some research on how these things are used to constrain the magician, and then you’ll understand more about constraining spirit perhaps.
[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:22, topic:3066"]You got me, but since my first evocation (where something manifested physically), I have not used a circle, or felt one was necessary to work with the spirits I summoned. This is a fanciful illusion most occultists are happy to enjoy. The only exception being the universal circle.[/quote]

No worries. And I’m glad you found a method that works for you that doesn’t require the use of a circle or other such tools. But what resonates with you may not be so for others, just as GT works well with me but most here abhor those methods.

And same to you, for it is the first step on initiation to godhood. But all things are simply methods that one uses and accepts until one no longer needs them, hence the gasoline example I tried to give you earlier. Sure it may get you from A to B, but you’d rather ride in a space ship that can get you across the solar system faster than the speed of light, would you not?

It’s not necessary, but if forced to pick between using a gasoline powered vehicle, or an FTL interplanetary space ship, you’d probably choose the latter. I’d be hard pressed to find a reason, why you wouldn’t…Unless you’re Amish or something fucking weird.

[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:22, topic:3066"]What you expect to summon, is what you will, whether it be nothing at all, or something that wishes to destroy you. These things ride the preconceptions you call them in upon.[/quote]

I’m sorry I just can’t get behind this. It sounds so…new agey. Something that I’d find in a Llewellyn book at Barnes & Noble. Don’t take that the wrong way, I’m not trying to put you down or anything.

Really, I brought reference into the necronomicon, that’s ancient Babylonian sorcery, and before you put that down, it has been proven time and time again that the ritual practices, and names of the spirits are identical to what I claim.

Perhaps those who are adept in the Necronomicon like Ashnook, have told me otherwise.

[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:22, topic:3066"]That's what I've been most trying to impress upon everyone here, whether the grimore is most ancient or modern, what you expect to call, you will. Some grimores have a lot of blinds intentionally written in that are directly related to this.[/quote]

I can’t get behind this either. I never understood why modern authors try to purport that the classical grimoires contain blinds. Can you give me an example of such a blind because every tool I find in most of the grimoires I’ve read play a specific part and correlate to specific symbolism.

http://www.slideshare.net/chaosdarby/lessons-on-the-necronomicon

page 12, chapter 4, on the watcher. Here is a classical example from ancient sorcery, broken down for you by a “legendary” user of the text whom is also a personal friend, and a teacher to me when I was younger and beginning this tradition. I can vouch for this man personally as a Master of his craft. You may find many here who are also students of his teachings, for I have found followers of them in almost every occult forum with necronomicon practitioners.

I say “legendary” because I literally typed “ashnook necronomicon” into google, and this came up as the FIRST entry.

http://warlockasylum.wordpress.com/interviews/warlock-asylums-interview-with-necronomicon-legend-ashnook/

If google says it, it must be fact, this much is undeniable to any man.

[quote="Frater Apotheosis, post:22, topic:3066"]Evoking people, is a different story, they come as they are, regardless of what you think you are pulling in. To do so requires this person's true name, and acquiring it is not always the easiest of things to do, unless the person has given it out. I wouldn't recommend giving yours out, especially to a demon, because being evoked and having idiots aim physical swords at you and attempt to constrain you, gets old after the first time it happens, and gives you some insight as to why spirits hate such practices so much. You may even end up getting angry enough at how you're disrespected to try and kill these kind yourself.[/quote]

I won’t touch on this. I don’t know anything about, nor subscribe to the theory, of evoking living people.
[\quote]

It came from the mouth of my initiator into much of the magickal arts, and like many things he has given me, I have come to trust and see it’s use and correctness in my own gnosis, and in the gnosis of others, during the time I have been a magician. Much of what he has taught me over the years was very similar to that of Koetting.

I could go on an on describing such an experience, but such knowledge would be lost if you are not even willing to accept it as possible

[quote=“Frater Apotheosis, post:12, topic:3066”]Ellison gave me a very helpful copy and paste from that “mentor” of his on Amazon, it turned me into a super secret elite masonic magician.

It’s super elite secrets. It’s not for everybody. Didn’t you read Ellison’s posts man?[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! You made me spit out my Ciroc and sprite!! How can I pre-game properly with no liquor in my cup!

Well, I’m glad I can be amusing if nothing else.

[quote=“Enlightener_Illuminator, post:1, topic:3066”]According to some, Goetics (and certain other Spirits) hate being constrained and will avenge themselves in the magician’s afterlife…

The Lesser Key of Solomon as well as other grimoires have harsh conjurations and threats aimed at them. I long tried to avoid such methods to work with Goetics but I think I’ve grown out of options (can’t work shit). What do you think?

There are even such conjurations to work with Lucifer & Lucifuge Rofocale and I was told they HATE that to DEATH…[/quote]

What follows is an opinion.

You say “have long tried to avoid … grown out of options… can’t work shit.”

What I think is you are grasping at straws with tied hands. Based on the words of your post, you will not find success with anything other than proving your own failure to yourself again.

In my opinion, the only way for you to succeed with the Goetia as it is written is to lose yourself in the cosmology of the system. This means losing your mind. Not in the sense of insanity (although that’s a possibility since we reach beyond our selves in things like this).

If you used the system as written you would have to let go completely of your self concept and assume the mantle of divinity to the extent that the scourging and bindings etc. would actually work, due to some aspect of divinity working through you (as you).

If this is the case that it happened that way, then it might actually be worth trying.

Some things are illusory and paradoxically necessary. Usually they are experiential, such that they involve such a shift in perspective that they are unforeseeable from the mind state of your current self. As soon as you do succeed with something that appears impossible or monumental a few times, you will realize it isn’t (monumental, amazing, etc.), and it’s just the natural state of things.

Once you open the door you can stop looking for the key.

Check your pockets, yo.

1 Like

What I’m most curious about, off the back of this, is why spirits sometimes give us words to use, in circles or spells or otherwise, that we don’t understand?

I’ve had this, it began about 7 years ago and I’ve only had a small handful of things, but some I managed to decode using Google translate, others are still completely meaningless to me, and asking spirits, they tend to just say to use the words as given, and don’t worry.

So, it doesn’t seem to be the case that they want us to hit the books and learn these languages, for example.

I’m curious what anyone thinks on this (and excellent replies by the way, thanks to everyone who’s contributing, I’m learning a lot and getting own ideas clarified by it all!).

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:27, topic:3066”]What I’m most curious about, off the back of this, is why spirits sometimes give us words to use, in circles or spells or otherwise, that we don’t understand?

I’ve had this, it began about 7 years ago and I’ve only had a small handful of things, but some I managed to decode using Google translate, others are still completely meaningless to me, and asking spirits, they tend to just say to use the words as given, and don’t worry.

So, it doesn’t seem to be the case that they want us to hit the books and learn these languages, for example.

I’m curious what anyone thinks on this (and excellent replies by the way, thanks to everyone who’s contributing, I’m learning a lot and getting own ideas clarified by it all!).[/quote]

This is merely speculation but perhaps they wish for you to expand your knowledge beyond what you see or feel is necessary. Maybe they’re leading you to a greater understanding of something but wish for you to “prove your worthiness” so to speak by taking the extra mile or two and decode something. Its like they say; nothing worth doing is ever easy.

[quote=“Baphomet, post:28, topic:3066”][quote=“Lady Eva, post:27, topic:3066”]What I’m most curious about, off the back of this, is why spirits sometimes give us words to use, in circles or spells or otherwise, that we don’t understand?

I’ve had this, it began about 7 years ago and I’ve only had a small handful of things, but some I managed to decode using Google translate, others are still completely meaningless to me, and asking spirits, they tend to just say to use the words as given, and don’t worry.

So, it doesn’t seem to be the case that they want us to hit the books and learn these languages, for example.

I’m curious what anyone thinks on this (and excellent replies by the way, thanks to everyone who’s contributing, I’m learning a lot and getting own ideas clarified by it all!).[/quote]

This is merely speculation but perhaps they wish for you to expand your knowledge beyond what you see or feel is necessary. Maybe they’re leading you to a greater understanding of something but wish for you to “prove your worthiness” so to speak by taking the extra mile or two and decode something. Its like they say; nothing worth doing is ever easy.[/quote]

To be honest, I try to be a historical re constructionist to some degree with ancient sorcery, because those that trained me in it, told me in my youth, that if I was serious to embark upon this path, I would go about learning 2 or 3 ancient languages (“AT LEAST”) to help decipher manuscripts, and put together our practice.

Although E.A. is very good at channeling content, I and others have been keen to point out certain implications of the content and the rituals he’s published in the context of ancient history of magick. This point is something he let me know, is something many people remind him of who are true scholars.

However, what I was informed by the most learned sorcerers in the priesthood of certain organizations, that if I was truly serious…I was to think it’s a necessary part of this JUST AS MUCH AS PRACTICING MAGICK. In my own experience, that’s how important this has been to me. However, it fits into my interest of pouring through ancient documents and learning ancient history, for more than just a desire to bitch slap Christians in the face. This is something I started doing as a child, something my family inspired deep interest in me to learn.

But for some, it is clearly not the path and many don’t believe in such practices. That’s fine, if you want to help me covet all the wisdom, knowledge, and power for myself, that’s cool too.

I think however, that the ancients in particular were incredibly adept at sorcery, and often masters of protecting their craft from being mastered by outsiders to be used against them, or it being abused for child’s play and causing real harm.

This is as much about decoding what the hell you’re trying to do, as it is about following something to the letter. People like Madam Blavatsky were notorious for filling in the gaps of historically sourced material with divination and other practices…We confirm our divinations with history, rather than history with out divinations. If you don’t understand why, you’re missing the point.

Unless I feel it has been delivered to me via incredible gnosis, I don’t feel that’s a very substantial means of historical proof, because even the most gifted individuals are limited to some degree in being 100% reliable.

I will also say, some of the most shocking conclusions I have ever come to in gnosis, are still things I’ve been able to type into google and find something, even if what I type in is the only part of the mystery I will find. If this is a mystery I feel I have uncovered in the world (like one I delivered to E.A.), it will simultaneously unveil itself in a universe, if to be the only part of the mystery that reveals itself as confirmation. It’s the nature of the universe. I don’t understand it, but I’ve heard it revealed to me by numerous sorcerers, who would even INVENT spirits to call upon, once they called them into the world for workings, they found their names, no matter how strange, would pop up unexpectedly and work their way into TV or their lives in ways that would boggle their mind. If you work with it, you should fucking expect to find shit on it in your life, and the only reason you won’t is if you turn a blind eye to it. It will be there if you really look for it, and sometimes some really weird shit may be really hard to confirm, and requires you to embark upon almost a sort of path working to decode it and gain the “truth of the mysteries and power” and all that stuff. But sometimes the best fruits are at the top of the tree, and this is the true essence of this whole magickal path.

I will also say, some of the most respected practitioners of ancient sorcery will ridicule you for being an idiot, and doing exactly what spirit tells you to do always, some of these ancient gods have trickster qualities, that may give you something which if you were to use it seriously you’d definitely be on a path to madness. Such individuals were keen to remind me, there’s enough on the internet at this point, that you could spend a few hours at most and be able to verify these claims they make via google. The internet has become full of spiritualists who practice, and is perhaps a bigger meeting ground than many have in Western society to find other magicians, especially those willing to reveal their own practices, so this isn’t a bad place to look for most of it. But for the man who has a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Sometimes, you won’t even find it there at all, and you need to keep your eyes open in your own life for something that might come up that you really don’t expect.

Best of Luck,
-Frater Apotheosis

Frater, what ancient languages do you know? I used to know how to transliterate and then translate hieroglyphs but I haven’t kept up with it so I lost that skill :frowning:

Interesting points from both you and Frater A., thank you for taking the time!

The bits that I can translate are always legible, for example I never get nonsense phrases and some of them have been amazingly accurate to things in my life, spoken in languages I don’t know at all.

It’s not been like the urban myth of asking for a tattoo in Chinese saying “Peace” - only to come out with “Egg Fried Rice” or something. :slight_smile:

I have a reader’s pass for the British Library, which has a phenomenal stack of out-of-print and rare books, and I’d be more than happy to do the research, so I’m certainly NOT lazy - if anything, in the past I’ve sometimes prioritised research too far. It’s not a huge big deal or a problem, I generally go with the flow, so on balanced consideration I’m going to carry on taking the occasional bit of time to research stuff (I have another trip to the British Library planned soon, I usually go about once a month), but neither am I going to sweat it and refuse to use stuff unless I can nail down the exact meanings.

Thank you both for helping me reach a more structured conclusion on how to address this.