Does Prison Actually Make a Difference?

[Yberion]

Prisoning System in America really needs an overhaul…
Maybe the current float of Northernry and Heathenry may give that changes a go.

Sincerely,

¥’B

[DungeonMaster]

Given that most Norwegians don’t actually practice Asatru or Rune magick, I doubt the increase of that type of thing in America will make a big difference. The problem is in the culture. Despite everyone’s complaints that American prisons are too privatized, the fact is that the government is still very much involved in them. We elect judges and people who are “tough on crime.” This is why we have such ridiculous sentencing, from years for drug use to multiple life sentences and the death penalty. It’s ridiculous, but no one wants to humanize people who happened to be arrested or incarcerated. We have criminal records and central registries that keep people from living their lives, too. The whole system is broken, but it has nothing to do with heathenry.

[Woodsman81]

I saw this vid about a week ago, and my conclusion was that prisons do nothing but eat funds and provide society with the illusion of moral superiority. The prison with the best results was the one that duplicated normal life the most, proving in my mind that if there are possibilities for people to pursue normal lives, most criminals would not turn to crime in the first place.

I really like how he pointed out that the American approach is really a fear-based revenge/reward system, and accomplishes nothing. In terms of rehabilitation, prisons here in America are a disgrace.

[DungeonMaster]

It comes down to that obnoxious tough-on-crime mentality. No one is interested in rehabilitation, they’re interested in revenge. When it comes down to it, that’s what most “justice” actually is - revenge with a less threatening name.

[Lady_Eva]

@DungeonMaster

It comes down to that obnoxious tough-on-crime mentality. No one is interested in rehabilitation, they’re interested in revenge. When it comes down to it, that’s what most “justice” actually is - revenge with a less threatening name.

This is just about the most primal human need there is, so if you don’t give people that outlet through the system, they will enact it themselves, and a world without prisons will also be a world where vigilante violence occurs on the reg.

Vigilante groups will be open to fanaticism and also subversion, and lack the resources of the police and things like forensics, and protocols around evidence collection, preservation, and chain of custody, you could also kiss goodbye to “innocent until proven guilty.”

But given the disgraceful state of sentencing in the UK, and the fact many of our prisons are jihadi-academi, it’s hard to see how that wouldn’t still be a massive improvement…

[Woodsman81]

I still say the first approach is to make every possibility for a person to take care of their self legitimately available. If there is no realistic need for criminal activity, then at least when that primal urge to punish kicks in the pool to pick from should have a more consistent concentration of truly undesirables to cull.

Still, though. I understand the primal programming, and have even felt it many times, I have to believe progress can only be achieved through rejecting that one. Even in terms of simple pragmatism and efficiency it makes no sense.

[Lady_Eva]

@Woodsman81

I still say the first approach is to make every possibility for a person to take care of their self legitimately available

That works with crimes motivated by financial need, but what about where this crosses into simple greed, and what about rapists, pedos, and psychopaths who abduct people simply to hear them screaming?

Remove the promise of revenge and people will lose interest in funding the tools needed to catch complex cases, such as child porn, human trafficking, and also various types of corporate corruption that can result in death and other harm.

@Woodsman81

I have to believe progress can only be achieved through rejecting that one.

Behaviour is heritable, where it ties to IQ and psychological factors. Culling beats coddling from a “driving evolution” standpoint.

@Woodsman81

at least when that primal urge to punish kicks in

That urge is always felt first by the criminal.

[DungeonMaster]

I definitely get the primal urges, and I’m struggling with those feelings right now, but looking at it from a statistical standpoint, the Norwegian model has what our own lacks: results.

Perhaps I’m wrong (my sources are sketchy), but it seems the Norwegians themselves aren’t clamoring for tougher sentencing. Maybe a change of culture creates a massive mindset shift. We see it in today’s world especially, as it tears itself into two extremes: the ultra right and the far left.

[Woodsman81]

@Lady_Eva

That works with crimes motivated by financial need, but what about where this crosses into simple greed, and what about rapists, pedos, and psychopaths who abduct people simply to hear them screaming?

That’s what I mean when I say it leaves the pool of people to punish less harsh on the conscience. Fuck those types, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

@Lady_Eva

Remove the promise of revenge and people will lose interest in funding the tools needed to catch complex cases, such as child porn, human trafficking, and also various types of corporate corruption that can result in death and other harm.

I would disagree. How about a well meaning ploy to direct public sentiment where it might actually do some good? Every person currently in uproar against truly meaningless crime is a person that could be directing that focus to the things that do matter, like the ones you mention. Take America for example. There are millions of people concerning themselves and their attention to drug laws rooted in racism,corporate special interests, and religious moralism. If you were to redirect their attention through benevolent intent towards the truly sick people poisoning our species, what good could come from it?

@Lady_Eva

Behaviour is heritable, where it ties to IQ and psychological factors. Culling beats coddling from a “driving evolution” standpoint.

You are 100% correct, and this is where we start to enter grounds where our species is not ready for the next step needed to address this, IMO. We are only human. While I have seen some fairly stupid people inherit, both socially and genetically, some very undesirable qualities, at the same time I have met some pretty intellectually simple people who are genuinely awesome and full of hidden gems of wisdom.

Long story short, there is no universal address to the problem of incarceration. Over time, though, I like to think we can sort it out.

[Lady_Eva]

@DungeonMaster

looking at it from a statistical standpoint, the Norwegian model has what our own lacks: results.

Cultures are not all alike, what works in Norway may be because it’s full of Norwegians.

Singapore has a different response to crime and yet is equally civilised.

Capital punishment in Singapore

[Yberion]

@DungeonMaster

Given that most Norwegians don’t actually practice Asatru or Rune magick, I doubt the increase of that type of thing in America will make a big difference. The problem is in the culture. Despite everyone’s complaints that American prisons are too privatized, the fact is that the government is still very much involved in them. We elect judges and people who are “tough on crime.” This is why we have such ridiculous sentencing, from years for drug use to multiple life sentences and the death penalty. It’s ridiculous, but no one wants to humanize people who happened to be arrested or incarcerated. We have criminal records and central registries that keep people from living their lives, too. The whole system is broken, but it has nothing to do with heathenry.

I meant that the new views brought forward from heathenry may change it towards better and more reasonable legislations.

But i completely see your point, aswell…

@DungeonMaster

It comes down to that obnoxious tough-on-crime mentality. No one is interested in rehabilitation, they’re interested in revenge. When it comes down to it, that’s what most “justice” actually is - revenge with a less threatening name.

• Very True.
  In Germany, - or well at least my parents tought me - Self-justice is a crime.
  That goes as far as people being trained in martial art’s automaticly getting higher penalty for hurting or killing others then untrained, which goes along with the proportionality of Weapons.
  Meaning if you were attacked by a gun and killed the attacker by a knife, you get lower penalty as killing with a gun when your opponent only had a knife to defend.
  All of that also changes with weather there was Gun-Training / Weapon-Training before that incident or not.
  …
  In some sense, there’s just a bloodthurst inside of the system, we can only go along with or refuse.

• Personal note - interestingly i got robbery on my Workplace just shortly after Posting this thread initially.

Sincerely,

¥’Berion

[Lady_Eva]

@Yberion

In some sense, there’s just a bloodthurst inside of the system, we can only go along with or refuse.

The system arises from us… with all the flaws and attempts to be and do better that we have.

[Yberion]

@Lady_Eva

The system arises from us… with all the flaws and attempts to be and do better that we have.

I know for a long time now, that what is a crime for some is a honor for others and pure fun and joy for yet another kind.
so… - one and the same situation can be handled in very different ways.

[Eve1]

Gosh how about made to having to live with a ‘black marker’ in sociaty for a crime you didn’t commit ,and to the contrary was the innocent one, and ruined your own life for years just to keep your kids safe and left without support eh? … The story of my life…
The justice system here is corrupt, and anyone with enough money top barristers and connections can win most cases, especially if your up against a religios group ive learened, who even would bare false witness and manipulate authorties figures in the name of their religion … it all begs the question what am I doing here, why did I sacrificed all my life to do good yet slapped in the face and punished for it in front of my abusers and the end forced back in this group with no protection, with the support of the authorities , and through blackmail etc … but who cares , no one . I’m evil if a heartless judge and religious leaders claim so even though the gods above who keeps the ‘videos of our lifetime’ know the truth. So yes thank the gods you don’t have to lead a double life… and yeah people seem to think their life is tough,… and if i dare talk about what i went through aparantly ‘I’m’ crazy or paranoid. … that why generally ive learned to shut up lest i get punised more or called ‘mental’ just to shut me up…the amount of phycological abuse and manipulation I went through over the years from these bribed , one sided authorities, and the systematic learned helplessness the force in you … I don’t think I could look at police or the legal system as the “good guys” or the perfect role model anymore. My innocence is gone. Sorry.