Could Astaroth be Amaymon?

Astroth is one of the most influential and powerful demons mentioned in many grimoires and having a background in being a relation to Astarte, giving her a deeply rich past. She has carried many titles such as the “evening star” and “queen of heaven” making her a confrontation to the Virgin Mary within Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches.

Amaymon is known as the king of sprits within the cardinal direction south, having power over Asmodeus and demons associated with lust. It is frustrating trying to find more details on what this demon.

It is hard to believe that a character such as Astaroth is only given the status of Duke after having such an influential role of representing a multitude of significant fertility and war goddesses within the pagan world. In the Grimoirium Verum, she is given very high ranking status as part of an evil trinity. I have found it interesting that both Amaymon and Astaroth have similar forms, a crowned man riding a large beast caring an object (viper for Astaroth, and dart for Amaymon) in the right hand. They also both have similar warnings about their poisonous breath as well.

What are your thoughts and experiences with these demons?

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This is the kind of confusion that results from trying to syncretize Goetic spirits with deities from other pantheons. Apart from the similarity in their names, there is really no similarity between Astaroth and Astarte. Making this connection is causing you to make weird connections within the Goetia itself. Astaroth is Astaroth. Astarte is Astarte. Amaymon is Amaymon.

The Goetia and the Verum are two different systems. Life will be easier if you treat them as such. We can only speculate as to why spirits are ranked differently in different grimoires. You are going to get better results if you approach the spirits as if they are each their own entity without worrying about what ancient god they might have been. Connections between Goetic spirits and ancient gods tends to fall into the category of someone’s upg. Treat it as such and take it with a huge grain of salt.

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I agree with this, you’ll find a lot of people trying to mash the goetia with the Ancient Gods, forcing connections where there isn’t any or using small assumptions such as “these two beings both are connected to fire or creation they must be the same being” you further confuse things by taking a small aspect shared by many (even humans) and making them more than they are.

Existence is much too large for all the Deities to randomly be some mask or aspect of the Goetia who are completely different beings.

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I think there a couple of factors at work that is causing people to do this. One factor is that a lot of occult literature is influenced by Theosophy. Theosophy posits that there was once a single universal religion. When you look at things through that lens, you start making spurious connections like Buddha=Osiris=Jesus=Lucifer. If there was ever a favorite sport of Theosophists, it seems to lie in making these sorts of connections combined with grafting Hinduism and Buddhism onto everything.

The other is that people want to work with demons, but can’t get over the Judeo-Christian associations that are part of the Goetia itself. And so they go through the mental gymnastics of trying to syncretize them with other deities in an effort to remove them out of the JCI context . This really has more to do with their own emotional baggage regarding JCI religions than anything with actual roots in historical reality.

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I think it is very important to consider the sources of the spiritual information that you gather in your research. I do not think it is a good idea to regard any text as being completely doctrinal and without fault, and by the same token, I do not think it is a good idea to regard each potential source as being of equal value.

Such titles as “evening star” or “queen of heaven” don’t seem to carry much meaning. Perhaps they may briefly describe a quality or “calling card” of a certain spirit, but assigning deep significance to them seems far less useful than relying on the results that a spirit brings you, and on the impact they have in your world that you may not necessarily have been expecting, but discovered through directly working with them.

On to the actual topic, as has been mentioned we should clarify which system of magick we are talking about here. If you are referring to the Goetia, then there are a number of problems to address. For one, Amaymon is not one of the 72 demons, nor is Astarte, nor is Asmodeus (unless you assume that Asmodeus is a variation on the name of Asmodai, which does seem reasonable enough).

While we could attempt to cram every spirit that has been known as a demon into a single system, that seems ineffective, especially when you consider the Goetia as a piece of a larger Kabbalistic framework, where each demon is paired with a Shem angel and angelic emissaries.

With that being said, then perhaps we should consider these demons in the framework provided by the Book of Abramelin. Here, it is said that Astaroth, Amaymon, and Asmodeus (which was changed to Asmodi in a later work that expanded on the Abramelin to better reflect the original pronunciation) are all Dukes serving underneath the four Kings of Lucifer, Leviathan, Satan (renamed Shahtan), and Belial.

The text states that Astaroth and Amaymon are distinct spirits, each with their own unique demon servants beneath them. While the Abramelin itself does not provide much detail in the way of how to summon the demons or what their powers and qualities may be, a recently published grimoire known as Lucifer and the Hidden Demons provides an accessible, workable method into the magick, with the powers of the Kings, Dukes, and most powerful Servants elaborated upon thoroughly. Working with this system makes it very clear that these are not the same demons.

I must admit that I am not at all convinced by most of these arguments stating that one spirit is the same as another, particularly when these spirits originate from completely different traditions. If you want to argue that spirits have similar functions or are similar in terms of their powers and qualities, then I could see a reasonable and interesting point to be made, a sort of meta-metaphysics.

Where I think the trouble comes in is when one starts to equate all these different spirits with each other and tries to jam them all into one system, as what comes out appears to me to be little different from the chaos magick practice of invoking Superman or Dumbledore. Different powers and qualities are assigned to a symbolic entity, and then that entity is put into an often free-form and somewhat loose magickal operation without much of a connection to any historical methods or frameworks.

Now, I am certainly not saying that we should not try new things and attempt to bring innovations to magickal practice. Chaos magick at its height seems to have been a rather good influence on Western magick in general, as many of the old superfluous practices, such as wands and other such implements, have been replaced by more potent processes of the imagination, and without the “free-form” attitude of the Chaos paradigm people may have been more reluctant to try to simplify and expand our practices.

I am also not saying that all newer practices are without value. If the magick works, then it works, and I’m certainly not one to argue with results. What I would suggest, however, is that some techniques and sources are more reliable and effective than others when it comes to receiving high-quality results, both in the practical and the mystical sense, and that some sources are more susceptible to mutation and corruption by those with pre-existing assumptions and beliefs, particularly when those assumptions and beliefs are shaped by the prevailing religious attitudes of the time.

To conclude this lengthy post, I will reiterate again the importance of carefully evaluating the source of your information. Perhaps a tired reminder in the era of Fake News, but one that I think holds especially true in the now digitized and increasingly mainstreamed (to a small extent) world of the occult that we find ourselves in today. If you made it this far, thanks for reading I suppose.

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Ah, the old “let’s cram everything onto the Tree of Life” routine. That in itself does tend to create connections where there really shouldn’t be any. It’s one reason among many that I ignore Kabbalah entirely.

Some good points are made on choosing your sources carefully. I think that when it comes to research, looking at other people’s experiences is one of the worst ways to go about it. Some experiences are the fruits of sloppy research and sloppy working methods.If I was researching an ancient god, I would be looking at stuff put out by academic researchers. Not wikipedia or stuff written by an occultist, though I might us those as a jumping off point. I think that a distinction should be made between magical tech and historical lore. Some occultists may have good magical tech, but their historical lore is atrocious.

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I tend to try and experience first before researching just to minimize any influenced experience as much as possible. My experience with Odin and his brothers originally I didn’t know he had any…but after an experience I had with him then I went into research to confirm it and it turned out he does. However, I do understand not many want to go through that or can’t.

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Thank you all for your answers. I am trying to be very careful with my hypotheses, and it doesn’t really matter by what fits or has a correlation to a thing as much as to what works the best. I know by experience that a lot of demons seek and answer only to appropriate authorities, and if you don’t have that specific authority, it could really end up messing with your mind.

It is difficult working with Goetia with all its Christian influences and poorly written Latin. I like what you say Faustus, but even professional scholars often mash ancient deities together because gods and goddesses were brought back and forth through different trade routes. A lot of these scholars are biblical too, and end up connecting it all to Assyrian Mythology.

Human history is just a whole bunch of association fallacies sometimes; not even my college professor denied this. Anyone can write down events and add their own spin on what happened, and no one would be none the wiser if no evidence was found to go against it.

Can’t help but at least give it some food for thought on what the “experts” say. It’s too bad I can’t use an objective scientific method for any of it though. What I would give to be able to put everything under critical examination and get to know everything, but no, demons are a spiritual and psychological nightmare that like to dance on the ashes of rationality.

As frustrating as this is, I can’t help but feel a deep sense of euphoria just talking about it.

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I agree with mental gymnastics as a coping mechanism for jci dogma. That’s what caused me to really dig into associations of aspects. At some point it all got too “tangled” and I decided it doesnt even matter who they were, regardless of whether they are associated or not, to the practitioner it is more efficient to just call on the one appropriate aspect for the given task/work. So whether astarte and astaroth are associated is irrelevant in practice because if I want to incite passion, I’d call the astarte aspect, and if I want to divine the future or learn of “the fall” id call on astaroth. Whether they are the same entity should be irrelevant to the craft and it took me 2 years to escape the technicalities and “associations” I got caught up in.

The point is that faustus is right. As someone who once jumped down that rabbit hole, knowing the associations is irrelevant to practical magick and will only confuse the average magician.

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How about using the relationships of higher authority to subdue demons of lesser rank? Such as if one was to have a good business relationship with a King of the South would that mean that all southern spirits under that particular entity will respect you? I personally don’t expect so, but I am curious if I am wrong. I know legions will only abide by who governs them.

:raised_hand_with_fingers_splayed: Same lack of knowledge of Freya’s daughters with Odr (whom is often missing on a journey like Odin).

The Freya/Frigg and Odr/Odin relationships are much debated in the mythos. Some say they were splitting or transitioning. It is mostly up to the researcher and what the beings themselves will tell you.

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I don’t think so, if anything entities created by a higher authority either were created with free will or not, and if they were they have a choice to be under that higher authority or not. For example being the Goddess Inari who only has the authority to subdue kitsune entities under her but other kitsune and nogistune she has no authority over because they do not submit to her.

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Free will, that is a right many demons certainly like to uphold. One of the selling points I was offered was, why submit to another god’s choice of what is good and evil when you can become like a god and choose good and evil for yourself? Do what you want, that is the nature of all things.
Even the grimoires explain that demons freely lie, it is the most difficult situation to deal with. I don’t know how to make sure that I am not going to be misled or manipulated if the use of calling upon higher authority or gaining respect could be undermined.

Well only humans really believe in good and evil, morality among entities is more of a keep it to yourself view for the most part not such a generalized idea that we tend to make it into. However, I find the best way to avoid being mislead is to avoid making deals that require you to give more than you can. That way when you do return what you can give it’s something small. It’s sort of like gambling, start small, don’t throw all your chips in on the first run.

Perhaps it is a product of being a physical being that causes humans to define particular actions as good or evil. Most people only define it by what some doctrine says, but it should go deeper than that, there needs to be a reason for something to be good or bad. Many of us are just too stupid or incapable to have complete ability of self-awareness.

Have you ever came across the challenge of having a simple sounding deal with a demon and it ends up actually being harder than you thought? Like, for example, the demon says, “I’ll give you a promotion if you write this sigil on a piece of parchment and burn it on a Saturday under a black oak.” So you agree thinking that this is a piece of cake, and then you go to buy more parchment, but the store just ran out of parchment paper, or it rains on that Saturday so it’s challenging to burn the entire paper.

Pretty much, the civilization we were raised in, our home environment and the environment outside our homes. For me I didn’t really acknowledge the idea of good and evil since my parents never spoke of it, nor was it ever mentioned in my general environment. It wasn’t until I came online when I started to hear it. I don’t really believe in good and evil, but I do believe in actions that I either view subjectively fucked up or subjectively acceptable to my own views.

Lol things like that would be a pain in the ass honestly.

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So I was reading about the connections here and I’ve come across some interesting etymology regarding just the name Astaroth.

Now Hertfordshire University has done a paper on the origin of Astaroth and the results were interesting.

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A university paper sounds rather interesting. What did they find?

They sound connected,my intuition says that their connection is An legionary one meaning that astaroth is on the legions of amaymon.

Just me intution tho.

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There again, its upg and nothing really solid. It could be as you say but someone else may say different. And this is why demons are ranked differently in different grimoires, I suspect.