Buddhism- Evil anathema Buddhism!

Using the more basic principle of rejecting Labels, I still tend to find the constant derision against Buddhism, strangely annoying.
I will admit, looking back on a time of my life when I needed to be a “tyranical asshole” and the Lion needing to swipe and thrash in order to protect my family and children, my application of using the 4 Noble Truths and Noble 8fold Path, worthy though it may be- was a case of Terrible timing. But i was exiting at the time 30+ years of mentally, psychologically, emotionally, familially wrangling myself OUT of Phenominally deep and hyper entrenched so called Christian RHP, priesthood and all.
Even if I had been presented with this path or any so called LHP (thelema was the first concept which took 5 years to grab onto) grabbing onto it and being able to use it in any way would for me had been impossible as operation from a ‘kneejerk’ lack of research position is far more loathesome than not for me.
Not sure about many people, but in general, human Ascent- in RHP, LHP or Both- is done upon a ladder, line upon line, precept upon precept. We hope it can be rapid, but a giant leap in a single bound, I have found in my 54 years have been far more destructive.
Some things labled “Buddhism” are not, I have found even few confessed “Buddhists” are aware of some of their best intentioned life activities to be fallacious at best.
Buddhism, and Taosim and Zen, were far and Powerful tools and solutions opening the doors of my perception and operation to so called LHP and later “Demonolatry-per se”.
And, they are still incredibly powerful, Now far more far sighted, factors in the so called LHP "School of Studies"
What is so toxic about the 4 Noble Truths ? Seriously
What is so diametrically opposed and ‘dangerous’ about the Noble 8fold path?

There is alot more I could say- but hopefully this can begin to enlighten me.
Thanks

3 Likes

[quote=“Frater Dark Matter, post:1, topic:6577”] What is so toxic about the 4 Noble Truths ? Seriously
What is so diametrically opposed and ‘dangerous’ about the Noble 8fold path?[/quote]

Good questions: taking this as the 4 noble truths - “The Four Noble Truths are the truth of suffering, the truth of the cause of suffering, the truth of freedom from suffering, and the truth of the way to eliminate suffering, which is the Eightfold Path.”

This pre-supposes that TO BE AS YOU ARE - right now, no philosophy - is an innate, inarguable, and inevitable cause of suffering.

What kind of fucked up shit is that?!

What kind of cosmos, cosmogony, self-belief, and (worst of all) self-fulfilling prophecy says that to live, be, desire, love - is torture?

What kind of fucked-up parent would birth an innocent and unaware being into a barrel of nails and venom, just so they suffer so much with every reaching-out, every action or movement, that all they ever do is wish they were back in the womb?

I utterly and irrevocably reject that model of the universe, cosmos, the All, whatever anyone wants to call it.

Eightfold path - let’s get into that:

In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration...I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death...Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers... — Nagara Sutta

Right view - right by whose standards? The ones saying life and existence is a path of misery, pain, etc?

The ones who birthed every soul into a life of misery that can only be ended by ending individuated life?

If I chose to conceive a child only so I could TORTURE thast child - flay them, inject their joints with poisons, slowly gouge their eyes and deform their flesh - would you not think I was one sick evil scumbag, deserving of NO respect, NO adherence, etc?

“Right” is one heavily skewed concept in this worldview, is what I’m saying.

“Right aspiration” - see above. Right to take on board this warped worldview? Pass!

“Right speech” - straight to the thought-policing - speak against these ideas, and you’re WRONG"! Screw that, as well… :wink:

“Right action” - see above. “Right” can only be judged by your core values - if they’re “existence is suffering” then there’s ZERO motivation to relieve suffering since it’s inevitable and/or a result of one’s “attachments” and karma and dharma, which underlies the caste and gender-based oppression in Hinduism (the Buddha was a Hindu monk) and also, vitally, it places the motivator of action outside the SELF - onto whatever is taught by the gurus as “right” - this is screwy.

The rest? I could get onto them, but they’re versions of what I addressed above.

Am I “right”?

Hell, no!

But I walked that eastern-flavoured RHP as far as possible, and it’s phony, a sham, a lie, which is why the nations who follow it live in misery, caste and gender cruelty, and I totally and uttely reject its philosophies.

I posted a bunch more here and here.

At best, to address these concepts in their own terms, I now embrace attachment to my own manifestation and intend to change this.

And taking these philosophies to their own extremes, this is actually a legit choice - provided I’m willing to take responsibiliy!

4 Likes

[quote=“Frater Dark Matter, post:1, topic:6577”] Buddhism, and Taosim and Zen, were far and Powerful tools and solutions opening the doors of my perception and operation to so called LHP and later “Demonolatry-per se”.
And, they are still incredibly powerful, Now far more far sighted, factors in the so called LHP "School of Studies"
What is so toxic about the 4 Noble Truths ? Seriously
What is so diametrically opposed and ‘dangerous’ about the Noble 8fold path?

There is alot more I could say- but hopefully this can begin to enlighten me.
Thanks[/quote]

This is one I battle with off and on. With the ideas or Truths that these Buddhist and Taoist schools espouse and how it correlates with the Law of Thelema. This is not an easy one, my thoughts will be scattered so bear with me.

I don’t like to see these things in terms of lefthand or righthand when it comes to these concepts. But what I believe these truths or “rules” come from is the idea that our individual universe or reality tunnel is being held by other ideas or concepts, with words or the “Word” being the binding agent to which they effect or cause tension within our physical body distorting our universe or reality tunnel. This tension creates energy blockages within the nadis and results from our kundalini to not flow freely once activated. This might sound strange and I don’t blame you.

The idea is to live by these Truths but to the average individual this is torture. To understand what I mean is that these percepts will lead one up to taming the kundalini. This by itself is not easy to do. If you try to do this by yourself it will result in psychosis similar to that of drug withdrawals. So the use of Buddhist tantric or Taoist yogic practices and meditations will help one to realize this. Many people don’t think that the kundalini energy has to be tamed but I think it does. The kundalini energy being sexual in nature makes it difficult for people to grasp this concept. This is why many people have sex left and right, thus the increasing abortions and overpopulation in the world. Nobody is being taught how to activate, harness, tame, and even direct this kundalini energy so they just expel it through various means which in turn wastes a lot of energy, Magickal Energy. I’m no Thelemite but I believe it will further ones understanding of what Aleister Crowley meant by:

“Do what thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law,
Love is the Law, Love under Will”

This idea of the Will is not your will, again I don’t like using righthand or lefthand concepts, but the Will is of a higher source or THE SOURCE.

I can’t speak for all Buddhism, however in Tibetan Buddhism many of the teachings do come from the Nagas(Serpents of Wisdom). Its no wonder some see the Tibetan Buddhists as the Illuminati of the East. I noticed that in Tibetan Buddhism they are quite flexible when it comes to incorporating other religious and magickal practices. It makes me wonder why the Dalai Lama persevered Tibet’s ancient shamanic Bon Religion and just made a few adjustments. Many of these adjustments he made were to direct the Bon practices towards The Path or Dharma. Yes many Buddhists do use both white and black magick but it is used to clear away obstacles to The Dharma or Thelemic Will.

Anyways I might be rambling but this too may serve me in my own enlightenment, ascent, or whatever… Be wise as Serpents~

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Wow! that seriously is heavy stuff; but goes back to one of the things i have always bee surprised by, the way percption and “Disciple Embellishment” completely massacres what seemed to me to be ‘original intent’.
It is going to take along time for me to compose- but I am going to try and “line Item” address each of your points; Like one of my favorite sayings “What do you do when you see a Buddha? Kill It !!” I have finally had that seeming Koan Elucidated. Thanks- i swore I would never take up a work like this again… Now I learn my other hard lived lesson- “never sware to anything& Never say never- Always”.
I hope at some point it has value should i finish.

Power.


[quote="Lady Eva, post:2, topic:6577"][quote="Frater Dark Matter, post:1, topic:6577"]  What is so toxic about the 4 Noble Truths ? Seriously
  What is so diametrically opposed and 'dangerous' about the Noble 8fold path?[/quote]

Good questions: taking this as the 4 noble truths - "The Four Noble Truths are the truth of suffering, the truth of the cause of suffering, the truth of freedom from suffering, and the truth of the way to eliminate suffering, which is the Eightfold Path."

This pre-supposes that TO BE AS YOU ARE - right now, no philosophy - is an innate, inarguable, and inevitable cause of suffering.

What kind of fucked up shit is that?!

What kind of cosmos, cosmogony, self-belief, and (worst of all) self-fulfilling prophecy says that to live, be, desire, love - is torture?

[i]What kind of fucked-up parent would birth an innocent and unaware being into a barrel of nails and venom, just so they suffer so much with every reaching-out, every action or movement, that all they ever do is wish they were back in the womb?[/i]

I utterly and irrevocably reject that model of the universe, cosmos, the All, whatever anyone wants to call it.

Eightfold path - let's get into that:

<blockquote>In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration...I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death...Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers...
— Nagara Sutta</blockquote>

Right view - right by whose standards? The ones saying life and existence is a path of misery, pain, etc?

The ones who birthed every soul into a life of misery that can only be ended by ending individuated life?

If I chose to conceive a child only so I could TORTURE thast child - flay them, inject their joints with poisons, slowly gouge their eyes and deform their flesh - would you not think I was one sick evil scumbag, deserving of NO respect, NO adherence, etc?

"Right" is one heavily skewed concept in this worldview, is what I'm saying.

"Right aspiration" - see above. Right to take on board this warped worldview? Pass!

"Right speech" - straight to the thought-policing - speak against these ideas, and you're WRONG"! Screw that, as well.... ;)

"Right action" - see above. "Right" can only be judged by your core values - if they're "existence is suffering" then there's ZERO motivation to relieve suffering since it's inevitable and/or a result of one's "attachments" and karma and dharma, which underlies the caste and gender-based oppression in Hinduism (the Buddha was a Hindu monk) and also, vitally, it places the motivator of action outside the SELF - onto whatever is taught by the gurus as "right" - this is screwy.

The rest? I could get onto them, but they're versions of what I addressed above.

Am [i][b]I[/b][/i] "right"?

Hell, no!

But I walked that eastern-flavoured RHP as far as possible, and it's phony, a sham, a lie, which is why the nations who follow it live in misery, caste and gender cruelty, and I totally and uttely reject its philosophies.

I posted a bunch more [url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/general-discussion/how-has-the-left-hand-path-changed-you/msg73092/#msg73092]here[/url] and [url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/white-magick-the-right-hand-path/my-rhp-experiences-~-union-power-and-decay/]here[/url].

At best, to address these concepts in their own terms, I now embrace attachment to my own manifestation and intend to change this.

And taking these philosophies to their own extremes, this is actually a legit choice - provided I'm willing to take responsibiliy![/quote]
1 Like

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:2, topic:6577”][quote=“Frater Dark Matter, post:1, topic:6577”] What is so toxic about the 4 Noble Truths ? Seriously
What is so diametrically opposed and ‘dangerous’ about the Noble 8fold path?[/quote]

Right view - right by whose standards? The ones saying life and existence is a path of misery, pain, etc?

“Right” is one heavily skewed concept in this worldview, is what I’m saying.

“Right aspiration” - see above. Right to take on board this warped worldview? Pass!

“Right speech” - straight to the thought-policing - speak against these ideas, and you’re WRONG"! Screw that, as well… :wink:

“Right action” - see above. “Right” can only be judged by your core values - if they’re “existence is suffering” then there’s ZERO motivation to relieve suffering since it’s inevitable and/or a result of one’s “attachments” and karma and dharma, which underlies the caste and gender-based oppression in Hinduism (the Buddha was a Hindu monk) and also, vitally, it places the motivator of action outside the SELF - onto whatever is taught by the gurus as “right” - this is screwy.

The rest? I could get onto them, but they’re versions of what I addressed above.

Am I “right”?

Hell, no!

But I walked that eastern-flavoured RHP as far as possible, and it’s phony, a sham, a lie, which is why the nations who follow it live in misery, caste and gender cruelty, and I totally and uttely reject its philosophies.[/quote]

I’m glad you brought up “right view” and “righthand path” as if it was the truth but I believe its not. Its like the argument in occult circles when asked “Is it white magick?” or “Is it black magick?”, some may say neither “It’s grey magick!” I find this interesting because like my previous post I talk about not using concepts of righthand or lefthand, a dualistic type of thinking for me.

You’re absolutely right when you say:
"Right view - right by whose standards?"
This is why I find Tibetan Buddhism more interesting because they use the concept of Middle, i.e. Middle path or Middle way.

I read about this well known Tibetan Master by the name of Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna is known for his Middle view teachings. I still need to study and see what his teachings comprise of though.

Real interesting!

2 Likes

One more thing that I forgot to mention.

Some of the Tibetan Buddhist Dharmapalas aka Dharma Protectors originate from ancient Persia.

You can take a guess to where in ancient Persia?

1 Like

I have been working on the “Right”, concept. as in accuality- the Pali word does not have a hard and fast transliteration of that.
The more I read from the raw data for which the word is morphed, I find the word “Accurate” is actually more utilitarianly—accurate, and useful, as its original intent was meant to be as devoid of ‘dogmatic’ and moral righteousness judgment. hence the reason that Gotama left and organised no Rites or Rituals meant to incurr the attn or favor of any diety; all that came several decades later. Few people even attempt to go to the raw stripped down teachings of gotama; but tend to find something established and marketed now as “a Buddhism” and go from there. So what they get is mostly the Trapping of much later Established and Interpreted buddhism acting like a filter to look through in order to tell the ‘seeker’ How to see buddhism. A very mangled and distorted view- if really any at all.
Lady Eva is quite ‘correct’ in her query “Right View, according to who”? and I am quite positive that if gotama could be sitting right next to her with a reply- he would simply say "
“You”- because from his vantage point, even sitting next next to her- "Her Vantage point and through her senses- the only option is hers. And there is actually tonnages to support that. here comes my looney anaolgy- take for instance gotama sitting to the right of Lady E and someone in front of them shoots a bullet at him, and somehow during the bullets travel she can ask- “buddha! what should I do?!” He replies, “I say move my head 6 inches to my right!” Well, what good woulld it bo for her to follow suit and move her head 6 inches to the right?’ for him, it is likely an accurate view- Hopefully with an accurate action{provide the shooter has his windage 'accurate}, for her, adjusting her “Accurate view” with his “Accurate Action” would be disasterous!
Sadly we live in a time when for some reason if person A finds something effective- person B sees them as a Nexus and follows along, again the wonderful Human sheeple Engram for which gotamas work was actually designed to eradicate!
The so called safe harbor of the Label of LHP, becomes little less than a mindless Kneejerk reaction to any other “would be Buddhas” labelled accusation of “RHP”.
Well, gotta go help my son do halloween with my fav g-daughter!
i am mediatating pretty much on this whole issue- wish me luck!


[quote="Gho5ty, post:5, topic:6577"][quote="Lady Eva, post:2, topic:6577"][quote="Frater Dark Matter, post:1, topic:6577"]  What is so toxic about the 4 Noble Truths ? Seriously
  What is so diametrically opposed and 'dangerous' about the Noble 8fold path?[/quote]

Right view - right by whose standards? The ones saying life and existence is a path of misery, pain, etc?

"Right" is one heavily skewed concept in this worldview, is what I'm saying.

"Right aspiration" - see above. Right to take on board this warped worldview? Pass!

"Right speech" - straight to the thought-policing - speak against these ideas, and you're WRONG"! Screw that, as well.... ;)

"Right action" - see above. "Right" can only be judged by your core values - if they're "existence is suffering" then there's ZERO motivation to relieve suffering since it's inevitable and/or a result of one's "attachments" and karma and dharma, which underlies the caste and gender-based oppression in Hinduism (the Buddha was a Hindu monk) and also, vitally, it places the motivator of action outside the SELF - onto whatever is taught by the gurus as "right" - this is screwy.

The rest? I could get onto them, but they're versions of what I addressed above.

Am [i][b]I[/b][/i] "right"?

Hell, no!

But I walked that eastern-flavoured RHP as far as possible, and it's phony, a sham, a lie, which is why the nations who follow it live in misery, caste and gender cruelty, and I totally and uttely reject its philosophies.[/quote]

I'm glad you brought up "right view" and "righthand path" as if it was the truth but I believe its not.  Its like the argument in occult circles when asked "Is it white magick?" or "Is it black magick?", some may say neither "It's grey magick!"  I find this interesting because like my previous post I talk about not using concepts of righthand or lefthand, a dualistic type of thinking for me.

You're absolutely right when you say: 
"Right view - right by whose standards?"
This is why I find Tibetan Buddhism more interesting because they use the concept of Middle, i.e. Middle path or Middle way.

I read about this well known Tibetan Master by the name of Nagarjuna.  Nagarjuna is known for his Middle view teachings.  I still need to study and see what his teachings comprise of though.

Real interesting![/quote]
2 Likes

Yes, exactly - and of course 99.9% of “Buddhists” (oh, those “isms” and “ists”) would say I either deserved that because of karma, or that the shooter is part of the perfect unioverse and should not be diged…etc.

Meh - you know what my view is, if you find stuff in Buddhism meaningful, go to it and good luck so long as it never holds you back!

I honestly have only to know a bit about PR and spin (which I do) to realise what a bunch of kiss-ass/jealous maniacs/groupies people are in any situation, not only seeing what they want to see but then going round tellin g other people it’s the absolute truthg as well. :wink:

Sadly we live in a time when for some reason if person A finds something effective- person B sees them as a Nexus and follows along, again the wonderful Human sheeple Engram for which gotamas work was actually designed to eradicate!

^ This.

Although I will still piss all over any concept of “karma” and set it on fire by any means possible! :wink:

2 Likes

“Language is a virus”- William S. Burroughs

Semantics Sucks!
Someone, Please Kill the Buddha!

And Remember Kids!
Yoga=Pilates
Tantra=Sex
Karma=We all know what that Is

FOR PEERING EYES ONLY!
#BecomeALivingGod

2 Likes

Why not just do what works…?

J

Lady Eva, you may wanna read this:

"The Mahayana teachings deal with earthly desires entirely differently than the Hinayana (early) teachings do. Hinayana teachings held that earthly desires and enlightenment are two independent and opposing factors, and the two cannot coexist. Mahayana teachings turn that Hinayana principle over and say that earthly desires cannot exist independently on their own; therefore one can attain enlightenment without eliminating earthly desires.

Mahayana Buddhist teachings say that these 108 categories of earthly desires are actually one with and inseparable from enlightenment. This is because all things, even earthly desires and enlightenment, are manifestations of the unchanging reality or truth - and thus are non-dual at their source. "

What do you think? Sounds better?!

I do believe in the concept of karma as it explains a lot of things. Say there is absolutely NO karma, then those cruel, sadistic, depraved ISIL monsters that even rape, behead or crucify children would not only get away w/ all they’re doing, but even be rewarded for it (according to their beliefs).

I once read that karma may even affect the outcome of spells and rituals. Here are two excerpts from ‘Summoning Spirits’ by Konstantinos:

[i]Kamael
Title/Type: Archangel
Sphere: Geburah
Appearance: Kamael appears as a warrior dressed in a red tunic. He wears green armor plates and an iron helmet. He carries a scale of justice and has large green wings.

Expertise/Tasks: The most impressive trait of this archangel is his knowledge
of karma.
Kamael can show you how to make up for bad karma and, consequently, how to purify yourself in this incarnation. This archangel also acts as a kind of judge and can act on your part to make sure justice is served.
Kamael’s aid can be particularly helpful if you are involved in some type of legal dispute, but he will only help if he feels you are honest.[i]

[i] Raphael
Title/Type: Archangel
Sphere: Tiphareth
Appearance: In his aspect of Archangel of Tiphareth, Raphael appears in a blaze of golden light. His body seems to be a three-dimensional extension of the light itself.

Expertise/Tasks: Raphael is often referred to as the Divine Physician. If you are ill, or know of anyone who is, calling on Raphael may help that person get better. Keep in mind that for karmic reasons, sometimes healing magic cannot help a person who needs to experience a certain disease. This archangel will explain all of this to you when you evoke him. Raphael is also very knowledgeable in Hermetic Science and can act as a teacher in this discipline.[/i]

What do you think?

1 Like

[quote=“Enlightener_Illuminator, post:11, topic:6577”]Lady Eva, you may wanna read this:

"The Mahayana teachings deal with earthly desires entirely differently than the Hinayana (early) teachings do. Hinayana teachings held that earthly desires and enlightenment are two independent and opposing factors, and the two cannot coexist. Mahayana teachings turn that Hinayana principle over and say that earthly desires cannot exist independently on their own; therefore one can attain enlightenment without eliminating earthly desires.

Mahayana Buddhist teachings say that these 108 categories of earthly desires are actually one with and inseparable from enlightenment. This is because all things, even earthly desires and enlightenment, are manifestations of the unchanging reality or truth - and thus are non-dual at their source. "

What do you think? Sounds better?![/quote]

Nope, sounds to me (no disrespect intended) like a big load of pants still - I’ll explain why:

When any system has to say “Oh actually what people have been believing and acting on, internalising, and teaching for generations isn’t the true teaching and has got muddled up” then that just sounds like a cop-out to me.

But you know, if it works for you, you find meaning in it, that’s cool - I won’t try to convert you. :slight_smile:

I do believe in the concept of karma as it explains a lot of things. Say there is absolutely NO karma, then those cruel, sadistic, depraved ISIL monsters that even rape, behead or crucify children would not only get away w/ all they're doing, but even be rewarded for it (according to their beliefs).

But according to karmic law, those kids had it coming as a result of their own past actions, which sounds dumb as paint written out like that but it is the reason social, gender and caste injustices are so deeply embedded in Indian culture - women get treated like shit, but they’re women and it’s the way we do things, so they must deserve it to have been born into such a lowly state.

Seriously I have worked with Indian people who were raised with this basic idea and ended up hating it, and hating the way it’s caught on in the west as well.

I once read that karma may even affect the outcome of spells and rituals. Here are two excerpts from 'Summoning Spirits' by Konstantinos:

…What do you think?

Karma as a simple action > reaction string is no different to the valid concept of Cause & Effect explianed in the Kybalion, and obviously if you want to (for example) curse someone you need to bear in mind possible (side-)effects of the work, the same as a surgeon needs to bear in mind side-effects of an incision, such as the cut skin bleeding, when all he’s trying to do is access the inside of the body.

This is a different stance on karma than using it as a judgemental or retributive system, but it always ends up becoming that in people’s minds, both individually and societally.

This is pants:

  1. from the mountaintop perspective, in which the individual is as one with the Source of creation - there can in that state be no higher law, so if you see something you dislike, end it by the means most appropriate, but there can be no moral imperative external to the Self-as-All since nothing exists external to the All (which is why it’s “the All,” not the “98.75% of what exists”);

  2. from the everyday mortal perspective, in which really if karma is valid, we shouldn’t have prisons or even the right to self-defence, and paedophiles for example should be given state grants for dishing out justified karmic retribution to their victims, who must have done something terrible in a past life to deserve whatever happens to them now.

It’s all a big mess and a trap for idle minds, and a justification for apathy and smug complacency.

(I’m not ranting AT you E_I, I just feel very strongly on this issue! :smiley: )

Do what you wish, believe what you wish, we’re all just doing our best and for most of us, our beliefs shift and evolve over time anyway, what we were certain of 3 or 5 or 10 years ago we now see as incomplete…

Peace, dude. :wink:

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I’ve found Taoism complimentary to my beliefs and is probably the only mainstream religion I could actually practice and believe in what I’m doing. The whole concept it proposes of everything being an ever changing and eternal manifestation emanating from some great cosmic womb or whatever makes perfect sense to me.

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Lady Eva, you’re right. Karma appears to be a vicious circle in that sense; one murders, the murderer is then murdered in a future incarnation, the murderer’s murderer is also assassinated in a future incarnation and so forth…

BUT that vicious circle can be stopped. Say someone’s karma is to get killed in an accident or murdered. They may, through good deeds, prayers, meditation, purification work, and chanting (of Buddhist or Hindu mantras) expiate such karma. Having expiated it, such fate is annihilated.

I once read about a little girl from India whose marital karma was, according to her birth chart, very bad — a Mars affliction. Planets (incl. the Sun, the Moon, Rahu and Ketu) act as a gateway to karma, and Mars was ill-placed on her birth chart.

Upon learning that from an astrologer, her parents became very worried their little girl would never enter marriage. They performed, on her behalf, all sorts of rituals and remedies, appeased Mars, and once of age, she entered marriage with no problem. That’s how that girl’s karma was expiated.

A Catholic friend made me notice her parents may have told her early on that she had to get married and really made her want to get married. True, but say her parents had not appeased Mars and performed all those rituals, maybe that girl would have gotten into a bad accident and may never have found her husband.

Also, a Buddhist, in a group reunion, explained how she always attracted mean, controlling and abusive men. For some reason, she’d always enter into violent relationships. She then explained there was a cause of violence inside of her.

Upon practising Buddhism and chanting daimoku — Nam(u) Myoho Renge Kyo —, she expiated that karma and would no longer enter into such abusive relationships, and that stopped the vicious circle of being abused and abusing someone.

Now that I’ve explained it, you understand karma may be a horrible vicious circle, but it may, through the proper means, methods and intentions (prayers, chanting, offering to Gods, good deeds, use of sigils, talismans etc.), be warded off and even expiated.

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I don’t mean to be rude, but I fully and completely understand all this already because I studied yogic & Vedantic principles and threw myself into that for years! 100% of my focus was on the RHP goal of burning off reminaing karmic ties, and not creating any more, because at that time I wanted OUT - merger with Source, and that’s generally considered the best way to achieve it.

So I’ve read dozens, maybe hundreds of books and essays, debated the topic in classes and meetup groups, and engaged myself in the same kind of (I now feel) mistaken attempts to justify and humanise a belief system that amounts to wishful thinking that “he’ll get his some day” whilst also giving people a dangerous pass to write off things that they could otherwise usefully be fixing.

I know all about the idea of expiating karma but I still don’t buy it - IMO it’s fucked up deranged idea, but hey to each their own, I found interesting stuff in the Free Scientology writings online and that doesn’t mean I’m a Scientologist. :slight_smile:

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@Lady_Eva, while I was thinking for most of today about how to start a new topic in order to goad you in so that we could have a discussion about the finer points of the teachings of the Buddha, I finally decided to just add it here. I love you my dear Lady, and I first want you to know that I mean nothing with a heart wishing ill-will. But, I have always loved passionate debate and dialogue, and it’s a privilege that I afford to few. That said:

This is an inaccurate understanding of the four noble truths. First, with all things that have been translated from other languages, a question of that translation must always be asked. And what the Buddha taught was that life was dukka.

From the * Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

" Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of [dukka]: birth is [dukka], aging is [dukka], illness is [dukka], death is [dukka]; union with what is displeasing is [dukka]; separation from what is pleasing is [dukka]; not to get what one wants is [dukka]; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are [dukka].

And while yes, dukka does mean unfortunate events, it also refers to good events soon to end. So, it’s not that the Buddha is saying that every moment of your life is pure torture, he’s saying that soon enjoyable things end, that’s the fact of life. The second noble truth is that suffering, dukka is caused by desire or craving (tanha, literally thirst).

Back to the Sutta:

" Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving (taṇhā, “thirst”) which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming."

We crave pleasures, that’s a reality, we seek what we enjoy and avoid what we don’t. But, we can never truly satisfy ourselves, there is always something else to desire. We tell ourselves that sometime in the future, we will have such and such thing and everything will be better, but until then, we live in hell, this is dukka. Which brings us to the third noble truth, the cessation of suffering through the elimination of attachments. But how do we do that, it seems impossible, but the Buddha learned it, the eight fold path: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The eight fold path is not meant to be worked on one by one, but all together. The first two (though there isn’t really a first, but for simplicities’ sake it’s what we’re going with) make up the source of wisdom, the next three make up the source of loving kindness, and the last three make up the mental strength necessary to grow in wisdom and loving kindness.

The pali word translated as right, is better translated as “skillful” or “useful”.

Neither of these are the case. We are of course all called to relieve the suffering of others. That’s the whole point of the truths revealed to the Buddha. It was to help those on the earth. While yes, Buddhism came out of Hinduism, the two religions are very different. The two main things I’ll bring up here is Hinduism believes that everyone possesses an immortal soul known as an atman. But, the Buddha taught us “anatman” there is no soul. What we understand as our soul is an illusion of the five skandas. Next, Hinduism is a theistic religion, the relationship with the gods is a very important thing. But the Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, while gods do exist in Buddhist cosmology, they have their own concerns, and like all other things are impermanent and are also bound to the cycle of samsara, rebirth. You can definitely become a god in Buddhism, but it won’t satisfy either.

But what the Buddha taught us about karma is only actions which arise from the three poisons of ignorance, greed, and ill-will create karma. And Karme is just a law of cause and effect, and it’s immediate. You won’t store up Karma, though you may retain the fruits of Karma. Karma is not seen as a cosmic justice, it just is. Actions devoid of the three poisons don’t create any karma at all. But even so, it would be ill-will to see someone suffering and not offer help. It wouldn’t be very Buddhist to establish class systems. In fact the first time that slavery was ever abolished in history was when Ashoka, a Buddhist, ruled India (then called the Maury Empire).

Buddhism as a whole is all about the middle path, not just Tibetan Buddhism, all branches of Buddhism (including Theravada Buddhism, which is my branch and the only one I particularly care about :slight_smile:) believe in the Buddha’s teachings on the middle way.

No, no they wouldn’t, or they shouldn’t. Firstly, that’s not what the Buddha taught about Karma.

“The theory of karma should not be confused with so-called ‘moral justice’ or ‘reward and punishment’. The idea of moral justice, or reward and punishment, arises out of the conception of a supreme being, a God, who sits in judgment, who is a law-giver and who decides what is right and wrong. The term ‘justice’ is ambiguous and dangerous, and in its name more harm than good is done to humanity. The theory of karma is the theory of cause and effect, of action and reaction; it is a natural law, which has nothing to do with the idea of justice or reward and punishment.” - Walpola Rahula, What the Buddha Taught.

Karma doesn’t cause suffering, desire and attachment does. You need to put a barrier in your mind between Hinduism and Buddhism, because there are many, many things that are different about them. Another example of this is in Hinduism, Karma only comes from ones past, but in Buddhism, at any moment in the present you also make decisions about your Karma that affect your future.

Yes in Hinduism, no in Buddhism. With Buddhism you need to detach morality from Karma. There are other things that cause things to happen other than Karma, not every terrible event is because of Karma, sometimes it’s just pure bad luck or the reality of impermanence showing its face. As the Buddha taught, desire causes suffering, not Karma.

No, we should stop suffering. Full stop. Period. That’s the whole point of Buddha becoming enlightened in the first place. He saw age, disease, and death and he wanted to find a solution for that suffering.

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I really hate Chinese taoists as well as Thailand shamans, they are bloody disturbing and phony. Especially those taoists, there are dozen of them in my nation and they always try to hinder my socery whenever I need to do something

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