I’m sure you’ve all seen that statue or painting of Archangel Michael stabbing what is supposedly the Devil. There is also that image of the Virgin Mary crushing down a serpent’s head. Many mages work with Angels but also with Goetics, Demons and so on all at the same time.
So, they can all cohabit? No conflicting energies?
Yes, they call cohabit. The thing is not about the mythos but rather whether forces are complimentary employed or otherwise.
A classic example that can be used is Raphael and Marbas working in concert for healing.
Although, personally I’m fairly certain Raphael can be employed to inflict death on targets since, if you can heal, you can kill. Simple as that.
In fact, why don’t you evoke an ‘angel’ and a ‘demon’ in the same ritual and ask them the very questions you may wish to ask a human about this issue? And learn their response?
I’m still struggling with evocation. Can’t hear them.
[quote=“Kokuto, post:2, topic:3081”]A classic example that can be used is Raphael and Marbas working in concert for healing.
Although, personally I’m fairly certain Raphael can be employed to inflict death on targets since, if you can heal, you can kill. Simple as that.[/quote]
Nope, it’s not as simple as that. The spirits of the Ars Goetia are simply not ‘evil’ spirits. ‘Evil’ entities do exist and the astral war is a reality. Poseidon and the Kraken do not ‘cohabit’.
Well then focus on your preliminary skills first rather than attempting to spearhead to entities without the proper basis. Like Kokuto is saying, if you ask these entities you will get way more direct answers than what other people have been given. Questions like this will give you such polarized answers from people that you will never know what is “right” or “wrong” until you figure it out from experience.
Most any avenue that involves qualities associated with “spirituality” require an approach towards experience over intellectualization. It is not that the matter of these currents don’t contain a measure of intelligent approach, but rather that what we consider intelligence is ground in reality that is devoid of acknowledgement, let alone acceptance of the primordial as substantially real.
So you got to find this out on your own, and if you don’t possess an ability to find it out, then gain the skill to do it. No one here is an authority on anything of this matter, and those who are would probably not give any of the answers you will find here. They would probably tell you to find out on your own; so saddle up with your energy work state-change training, and then you’ll be good to find that out for yourself.
Some more on this whole thing: Belial introduced himself to me in a dream, when I was working with Ahriman (which was partially like a current inside me which had always existed but been suppressed, but also had a distinct consciousness of its own) and he did so by attacking me, both in the dream and in reality, with dark, vile entities of disease, ill-fortune, and general evil in the non-moralistic sense of that word. Stuff intrinsically hostile to any human life, no matter the person’s ethos and flavour of practice.
When I successfully, with some help from my Godself and also from Isis, drove those entities out and away, I seem to have passed some kind of test and he’s been working with me on stuff ever since: I would never have thought of evoking him, as I would have believed that out of my league.
So, there you have a “demonic” entity using other truly vile beings he seems to command as a test, and accepting my calls to a goddess to aid me in finding ways to bind them.
When I woke up from that dream, which happened during a period of extremely vivid and semi-lucid dreams, my face had frozen into a rictus-like a grin (similar to the Joker in Batman) and I had to actually unfreeze it with my hands and then call again to Isis to show me how to remove the last of the vile energies that had appeared from it. It was only because it was during some already-intense work that I wasn’t more frightened by the whole thing.
So my opinion, and it’s based on other experiences as well, is that what we think of as the classifications of Good Spirits and Evil Spirits aren’t always as black and white as we’d like them to be, but that:
demonic entities mentioned in the various grimoires and who work with a lot of magicians aren’t just big Santa Claus figures full of love and hugs, waiting to give us our heart’s desires, yet neither are they innately to be feared;
I agree with Poete that true evil, as in rot-your-bowels, slay your children, destroy your planet evil DOES exist and you need to keep a wary eye out for it, and don’t imagine it just needs a hug and a better PR guy - anyone who’s done healing work, or work with the deceased, will have met some such beings at some point;
entities will occasionally direct you towards what you would think would be “the other team” - for example, my Ahrimanic work introduced me at around the same time to Raphael, who I’d never directly called on before, and I’m learning a few things from him. (There are some Mercury correlations there, based on my own UPG about Mercury/Ahriman, but I wasn’t aware of them at the time.)
What The1gza says is the ultimate truth on this, you need to find out how it works for yourself, and above all get your communication clear with entities so you can hear what they say about it, and also, find at least one entity you really trust who has come through for you time and again, and helped you out when you were in trouble.
[quote=“Enlightener_Illuminator, post:1, topic:3081”]I’m sure you’ve all seen that statue or painting of Archangel Michael stabbing what is supposedly the Devil. There is also that image of the Virgin Mary crushing down a serpent’s head. Many mages work with Angels but also with Goetics, Demons and so on all at the same time.
So, they can all cohabit? No conflicting energies?[/quote]
Years ago, I met someone whom evoked the demonic king Bael, every day in a row, for well over a year. This was one of the many feats this individual had amassed, along with thousands of evocations, and he had all kinds of strange powers and understandings. The things I have seen him do on the astral, have never been repeated by any sorcerer I have ever seen, or even heard of for that matter. He was gifted at evoking spirits that most people didn’t know existed, and sometimes, he could call out to any power, and had incredible amounts of control over these things. Some of the most bizarre shit I have ever seen and demonic entities most sorcerers would deny the existence of as a joke or a secret. I asked a lot of questions of him on evocation. This was once my partner in a lot of activities, and he was a truly scary mother fucker who really knew his shit. And he frequently gave me answers which confused me at first, but provided a lot of depth on the subject for years to follow.
A lot of his depth was really lost on me at the time, however, he was still a powerful teacher for the short time I knew him.
This individual taught me many things, and started me out with the concept that a circle was complete bullshit and useless right off the bat, and that he had never used one, this is a claim I can verify and duplicate despite the ire of a lot of magicians.
This subject was one on evocation we talked about, and he gave me something really powerful I didn’t understand, that I have finally been able to make sense of.
I asked him if his intense workings with demons ever prohibited him from working with angels. At first he laughed at me slightly, but when he saw I was confused, he quickly got serious and said “you know, you’d think that, but in my experience I’ve seen they simply couldn’t care what else you’re working with more than 90% of the time, with few exceptions”.
There was a pause, and then…
This individual said to me, and I quote.
“Angels and demons are like two sides of the same coin”.
And now I understand exactly what he means, these are just spirits, that have so much in common with each other, and the only reason we even think they are at war, is because religion has made up a bunch of bullshit, that really limits the angelic and demonic paradigm from being useful anywhere near it’s true potential.
If you want to understand an angel, you have to get really deep, and go far beyond any paradigm that humanity has yet to create for such an entity.
Trust me on this, humans got it all wrong and fucked it up, if you want to understand this, that’s the first thing you have to accept, and throw everything out the window they’ve told you. You will only learn this by working with angels and demons yourself.
Gaining substantial gnosis is the only thing that will illuminate this understanding for you, for I fear no book will teach you what you wish to know.
Good Luck and Godspeed,
-Frater Apotheosis
i think what frater a wants to say in simple words, is the DUAL nature of all things that exists…the one can’t exist without the other…you can’t have a battery with only one pole.the energy must flow from the one pole to another.otherwise life can’t exist.even god has it’s oposite.
HUMANS ALSO…
so you can’t work with day without knowing what night is.that’s why evil is necesary in our lives.to help us see and understand what good is.and the reverse of course.