An intellectual approach

When I first became interested in black magick, I automatically assumed that all of those in the occult believed that demons and the spiritual world were real. And by “real”, I mean that they pre-existed humans and were not a product of their creation. In other words, I had no category for “egregores”. So when I began to see that many magicians did not believe that demons and such things were “real” (again, see my definition above), I was in utter shock. It was like hearing that NASA did not believe that space existed…I mean isn’t a belief in space the whole reason for that field of study in the first place??

Off and on I have thrown the occult away as utter junk and nonsense because of this topic: why on earth, I said to myself, would I get involved in the occult if, when I evoke demons, I am evoking nothing more than a product of my creation? Bull shit, I said. These clowns on here are worse than the Christians that I left.

I had even more disdain for the occult when everybody was telling me that even though magick “worked”, it would only be effective if you first believed in it. I could not wrap my mind around that concept. Physical laws of nature “work” regardless of whether or not you believe in them. You can be high on PCP, thinking that the law of gravity does not apply to you and that you can fly for miles; but when you jump off that cliff, you will find out real quick that what you believe has zero affect on those laws of nature. If magick “worked”, why would things be any different?

Well I think that I have come up with a way of rationalizing all of this in a way that does not make me feel like I am throwing out my brain 10X more than the Christians do:

  1. Regarding egregores: I am an avid backpacker and survivalist. That means that I try to be as self-reliant as possible. Sometimes this means making my own tools. The other day I made my own custom camping knife. It is a subject of my own creation, but can do things that I could never do without using it. I believe that this may be the same situation with egregores.

  2. My camping knife cannot do anything on its own. I must use my skills in order for it to be able to perform the tasks that I want it to do. That doesn’t make the knife any less “real”. It just means that it must be activated with my help. In fact, a skilled user will be able to use my creation even better than I can. He can actually pass it on to his kids who may be able to use it far better than even he could. So why could it not be, then, that egregores that were created by the first magicians cannot be put to even better use by magicians today?

This analogy may be helpful to others on here who may be extremely put off by Timothy and other atheist magicians.

Most people are still trying to figure it out. You arent entirely wrong, and figuring that iut is actually half the magick, the rest is just a bunch of fluff that someonr created to keep most mages busy and convinced of their structured magickal reality.

I think Timothy gets it. Plain and simple…

Im sure he does. The truth is a line blurred between Fiction and the Reality as we know it.

C.J. Lee-Timothy may be correct. The converse, on the other hand, may be true instead. There is truly no way to tell. I strongly argue that both sides on this matter believe like they do because they “prefer” to believe it, not because they have a strong case that is backed by data. Atheistic magicians’ hidden reason for believing like they do is that they don’t “like” the idea of being subservient to anything. However, that is a FAR cry from proving that we are not in fact subservient slaves. It is logically possible that a hateful and controlling troll god created us to be his bitches. Theistic magicians hidden reason for believing as they do is that they find comfort in believing that something outside of themselves are there to help them. However, that, too, does nothing to advance their position. It is quite possible that they are truly alone in this universe and left to their own power to change their world.

My main gripe with Timothy is that he seems to think his view can be proven scientifically even though, by his own admission, mainstream science denies it categorically. His view falls as much into the same “faith” category as the most extreme Christians do. That does not make it wrong. It just puts him in the same precise situation as those that he condescendingly looks down upon.

My goal by this post was not to pick on him. He is an extremely smart dude. I highly doubt that I think quick enough to beat him in a moderated, timed debate. My goal was simply to provide a real world analogy that illustrates how his non-provable stance mirrors things that CAN be proven by observations that can be viewed by all; his view is not patently absurd like it appeared to me at first. Without such an analogy, many people like me may continue to discount magick as being a pile of garbage. If it doesn’t help others, so be it. It helps me. If I held Timothy’s view (and I don’t), I would certainly try to fit some sort of analogy like this into my argument.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter to me what you believe. If it works for you, great. If not, oh well.

On a side note, I think the real understanding falls somewhere in-between both extremes. It’s a shame that most people can’t see this.

I agree that the truth may be found in the middle. From my perspective, there is no logical reason why real entities cannot in fact exist (again, refer to my definition of “real” above) and that egregores exist. To me, that seems very plausible.

In order to be immersed in the occult you must summon Lucifer (Samael) to visible appearance. He is the emperor. Summoning him should be manageable if you your heart is in sync with the infernal empire. Lucifer is the flawless Adonis. Accept him! The best Egregore is Elorath of the vampires. You will not ascend without either choosing sanguinary vampirsim or lycanthrophy. EGO DEATH PEOPLE…

Hey Jahbulon. Thanks for your input. I’m not sure how it directly relates to the topic, but it is always good to hear the knowledge and experiences of other people. I’m not a big fan of “ego death”, but I’m glad it works for you. Take care.

…What?

In what must you summon Lucifer to visible appearance to be initiated?

If you’re referring to the magical arts as a whole, then you are mistaken.

And the statements regarding vampirism and lycanthropy are untrue. Not only are both mere terms for natural energetic give and take, in other words synonyms for sex, you do not need to specifically practice one or the other in order to spiritually evolve.

Utilizing both is an option, but it is again unnecessary.

Unless you’re talking about something else…?

I don’t see how a fetish for blood drinking could prevent death.

Also, I think ego death is essential part/key to understanding the path but it’s not the final answer like most mystics and anticosmic satanists think. Oblivion is for quitters and the weak imo.

Velotek-i agree with you. But it’s clear that we are dealing with an esl

Englsh as a Second Language. We may want to give the person some slack. But I doubt it. He sounds like a RHP zealot.

It doesn’t have to be either total atheism, or troll god - my model is that there’s a boundless unquantifiable Source and that all forms with qualities (including the gods, ourselves, everything) are of it, and within it, and yet believe ourselves seperate.

Just mentioning this because both those polarities are a bit depressing, and also, don’t fit with any of my experiences, nor those of many other people. :slight_smile:

The troll god is the tribal god of a relatively tiny and insignificant group of people from the middle east, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the lives of people outside that, unless they fall for the spin of its various Prophets.

In my own 25+ years doing magick (and getting results) I never once worked with or called upon Lucifer until 2014, so I respect your passion and ethusiasm but I feel this is a misleading statement.

Huge, vast portions of the earth had never heard of Lucifer (or Samael) for millenia, and yet their witches, shamans and so on performed spells, divination, evocation, necromancy, and the entire range of magickal acts perfectly well.