Alcohol + evocation =?

Hello, hello, hello!

This evening I had a conversation with a ‘very experienced black mage’ (in their words) on one of the Forums I joined for the sake of research and ‘balance’. And I heard the most interesting little snippets from their life that made me wonder if they’ve ever done evocation (as claiming to be 'very experienced in a very ‘I’m not a particularly pleasant person as my daddy didn’t hug me enough’ way (yes, they were really patronizing and rude)), but that’s beside the point. Now what follows just made me go ‘Oof! Must. Post. About. It. Now.’

The person in question told me how they require alcohol in order to speak to the Spirits as, and I quote “Pft! It is the only way to not be afraid if you know what’s good for you!”

I indeed, know very little and I make no secret of it. BUT… In my humble subjective opinion, the only thing alcohol does is help us gain confidence and banish fear. I wonder if the Left Hand Path is something one should practice if the only way they can muster the fear is by drinking themselves to the point of not even remembering the encounter as they’re just too afraid.

Now, as I know little to nothing still I would like to ask if any of you, dear practitioners of evocation, has ever performed it under influence of anything? And in general what are your thoughts? I don’t mean just under influence once or twice, but being too scared to do it otherwise? Surely it is not the way, or is my lack of fear incredibly troubling and this is very common indeed?
Please advise.

Regards,
Ri

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OMG, I haven’t got the energy right now to type a detailed thing about my experiences with alcohol + magick (I used to be really hooked, 2 bottles of wine a night most nights, more on special events) but what I do know from being on both sides of the line is that alcohol does NOT give anyone confidence, it merely destroys natural fears and inhibitions, so anyone who “needs” alcohol to do magick doesn’t “need” the alcohol, they just need to deal with their internal hang-ups and mental rubble that keeps tripping them over.

There are other and better ways to do just that, though.

Honestly I fucking LOVED to drink like a beast, and I did some of the most powerful magick I was then capable of during that era, but when I stopped, I realised the only barrier it had helped me over was ME all along.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I’ll drink like 250 - 500ml wine WHEN it’s ritually needed, not more than every couple of months, and not as a regular thing (anything I can get that far into remains a danger, but I will fully enjoy it when I do) and I shun the 12-step concepts, I quit through a combo of Rational Recovery and just being pissed off at it, like an abusive ex… :slight_smile:

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Oh, don’t get me wrong, a bottle of malbec on a Friday night at home watching documentaries or researching (even watching sci fi films) is a dream, BUT I wasn’t aware it’s a ‘thing’ when it comes to evocation, it is good to know I was wrong. It is good to be wrong, humbling and educational.

Obviously I’ve heard of the ‘trip’ , especially when invoking spirits, but it my mind, it seems kind of dangerous. I guess to some extent I don’t have such a tight grip on my emotions and feeling when i am tipsy or, even more so, drunk. Therefore as I am absolutely fearless, even giddy and excited as a small child when sober, I am terrified when drunk. In my mind - because I don’t have a firm grip of myself I will not be able to ‘be in charge’ of the evocation and the Spirit will, of course, realise this, therefore causing havoc in my life until I am sober enough to attempt any banishment ritual. Or even scarier - they will not take me seriously, because I am barely in control of my emotions, let alone be able to formulate what I fancy beyond a really nice experience with and incubus. (haha)

Perhaps you have to be confident and experienced enough to not be sober, perhaps I only think that way because I’m such an inexperienced follower of the Left Hand Path.
If I may ask, Lady Eva, what are your thoughts on trying it while you’re still very green? Id my fear of being drunk whilst doing it COMPLETELY ridiculous or is there a risk?

You weren’t wrong, alcohol and evocation don’t have to go together - nor do they, in 99% of my own work, I only use it (now) to:

  1. play with concepts from the Mass - this is a special interest of some spirits I work with, I basically consecrate then debase the “host” - it’s a minor and personal thing;

  2. to facilitate occasaional possession, like 250ml wine will inhibit enough of my common sense and reactions to get a spirit in who otherwise wouldn’t “fit” - this is like taking an anesthetic to get some dude into your appendix, again, not a normal nor desirable thing in most cases, I just like to push some boundaries;

  3. other stuff where it seems legit.

But it’s not essential, and I am really ANTI alcohol, anti-drugs, like lots more seriously than most people want to hear, so whatever. :slight_smile:

Look at it this way - I’ll cut myself for magickal reasons, or fast, or whatever other stuff, for a payoff - that doesn’t mean I think cutting every weekend, holidays, and when I’m a bit stressed, or the other bullshit rationalisations to “relax my control” would be cool (anything you need to control, is by default IN CONTROL of you) and nor do I fast, but then find I crave it the weekenbd, etc… meh, you get the idea.

I’m in a choir of one on this issue, and feel free to ignore me! :wink:

I guess to some extent I don't have such a tight grip on my emotions and feeling when i am tipsy or, even more so, drunk.

No-one does!!

Just look at admission rates to A&E for injuries related to booze, shit…

The Big Lie of the alcohol scam is that only flawed people let it affect them, the rest are James Bond - he realises he has a problem, knocks back just one drink, steely eyed, it sets him up like magic medicine, then he faces that shit down and all’s well.

In reality alcohol is a drug of addiction that works by disengaging you from self-control, which is why even “moderate” drinkers have had times when they drank more than planned, and/or did things they regretted while drunk.

It’s a con game - substitute glue or heroin for “wine, Chardonnay” and all the hype, they’re all just drugs.

Perhaps you have to be confident and experienced enough to not be sober, *[b]BULLSHIT![/b] perhaps I only think that way because I'm such an inexperienced follower of the Left Hand Path.

Alcohol is a pretty deadly toxin, this means people who drink it a lot, their bodies adjust and pump out enzymes and shit to help their core stability, to help them not be affected too much by it. It’s a thing called homeostasis and is why people’s need for any addictive drug increases over time - the body gets better at not being poisoned.

It sucks, but, what happens with booze and other drugs is, the aggravation of craving combined with being zonked (relieved of normal thought-processes, including fear and good judgement) and these may lead someone who’s ALREADY addicted to alcohol and other drugs, to feel like they perform better when charged with their drug.

It’s all bullshit, in other words - if I hooked a child up on regular shots of surgical morphine, the time would come when the withdrawal was so bad they needed a certain level of morphine to perform, and their physical pain would be lessened in that time (just as alcohol does with fear and normal thought-processes) so, yay, go booze…

If I may ask, Lady Eva, what are your thoughts on trying it while you're still very green? Id my fear of being drunk whilst doing it COMPLETELY ridiculous or is there a risk?

Please read Jason Vale’s “Quit The Drink - Easily” because he clairified what I already knew (what, in fact, we ALL know) about the lies round boze.

If you had a 12 year-old daughter, niece, would you suggest she knock back a few whiskies before a critical exam that decides her future?

After all, it would make her more relaxed, focused, spiritual etc - right?

If booze is so great for focus, concentration, attunement, why isn’t it drunk in the morning by most people who DO drink?

After all, wouldn’t it be great to be keyed-in, concentrating, relaxed, as you begin the day?

Everyone subconsciously KNOWS the lies about alcohol, which is why people with no major problems still save it for when they can relax, otherwise if the lies were true, we’d be giving it to kids first thing at school, and respecting the guys who have a can or brown-bag bottle in their hands by 11am, after all it’s helping them concentrate, be relaxed, and confident, isn’t it…

You weren’t wrong, alcohol and evocation don’t have to go together - nor do they, in 99% of my own work, I only use it (now) to:[/quote]

Thank you for sharing. This gives me something to process and ponder over.

I’ve read about how being drunk or high can make one’s exeprience more intense in many beliefs. But I am too much of a control freak (which I don’t think is good either) to attempt a serious evocation whilst being under the influence (in my mind every evocation is serious as the being I want to speak to - one should not be disrespectful with) of anything at all. I am only afraid of the Spirits when i am tipsy or drunk. Normally I am the worst - I am perfectly comfortable playing with fire. It simply made me rethink and re-evaluate a lot of things in my head once I heard that statement from a fellow follower of the Left Hand Part.

For one final comment on this, I don’t think any of us LHP people are alike, though many share backgrounds or ambitions - it’s a uniquely personal path, so if he/she gets off on a bunch of vodka - yay!

If someone can only evoke with a crackpipe in their hand, AND that pipe causes them no other problems? Yay!

It’s who we are and how we function as people, as magicians outside that as well (because, I’m NOT saying life has to be perfect before someone can be a good magician) etc., that counts. :slight_smile:

If someone’s happy and that works for them, and they never feel a draw to drink more with time, at weekends, on holidays, and so on, well, cool… :wink:

Gonna shut up now though :slight_smile: because I obviously have, or rather had, a dog in this fight, so I’m biased and also influenced by experience… IMO asking if you’d recommend it to your 12 year-old kid/niece/nephew etc., that usually sorts the crap from the reality. :slight_smile:

I did rituals drunk a few times but I was younger and stupid, at least I admitted it so don’t give me a lecture anyone, but I didn’t remember anything I did in the ritual. I was like 22 and a newbie drinker.

Now days I will NOT touch alcohol. I’m too easily addicted to it and I drank so much in my early 20’s that I literally got burnt out on it. I used to be able to drink 15 small cans of Steel Reserve per night or 3/4 of a box of wine, or an entire jug of that TGIFriday’s orange cream liquor stuff and so on. I could literally out drink a big burly 6 ft tall 235 pound man. (Pardon me, I’m Irish and Scottish lol) but now just smelling alcohol makes me wanna puke, so I will never touch the stuff again. I have been alchohol free for 22 months now! And trust me, people have offered me beers to be sociable and guys flirting with me have offered to buy me mixed drinks but I said no!

However, I got no problem doing a ritual on occasion (like every 3 years) with a light Mary Jane buzz but nothing too heavy as it makes me sleepy if I smoke too much. But every few years I get some to smoke because I can still remember things. When I’m stoned, I swear I can remember songs, information, events, movies etc. from 20 years ago. I also remember everything that I ever did that I forgot about while sober too, but the second I get high I remember what was forgotten so I don’t get that pothead memory fog stuff, my only problem when I smoke weed is brownies, cookies, donuts, and starch filled foods. LOL I’m a threat to sweet treats but nothing else.

Also occasionally, I do a light trip and I can remember everything but things are so much more vivid and I can see and hear the spirits more clearly than usual. I hallucinate a bit but I am aware of what is real and what is not so when that happens I just shake my head and say da fuck? Back to reality Raven! I’m on a trip right now so if I got a lot of typos, my badness. Try having sex with a demon while tripping, god damn!!! But anyway, I never take enough ‘nunya bidnazz’ to trip balls, just enough to get a light trip that helps me spritiually and intellectually and I can go into ultra focus mode.

No offense to anyone that hates drug use (Lady Eva and Arcane) I am just an open and blatantly honest person, which can be a good thing sometimes.

Honestly, to me if you’re doing drugs and magick (alcohol is a drug except to deluded people) then you’re doing magick DESPITE the drug, so no serious criticism there, some people do magick despite their religion, disability, family breathing down their neck, etc.

I’m not coming at this from being a puritan, I GET the appeal of the buzz, but I only object to the denial of the known effects of the drug over time, etc., I mean most people who think being drunk as a lark delivers “clarity,confidence, relaxation, courage,” and all the other bullshit (see my man Vale on this) wouldn’t idealise being that drunk to a child, who undoubtedly needs those things at times, or first thing in the morning for everyone, or whatever, so that’s where I come from with this. :slight_smile:

But yeah, do what works first - if you’re hooked on shit, you can still be a kickass mage, I was on 2 bottles a night, so it’s not like school and you have to please teacher. :slight_smile:

I do appreciate the sacred shamanic drugs: marijuana, ahayusca, salvia, etc. I use them to enhance my spirituality. Whenever I smoke marijuana I can feel my internal energy movements. I can vibrate a seed mantra and feel that chakra opening and I can measure which chakras are larger than the others, which ones need my attention, etc.

Well I don’t lie, I see no point in it so I will say that yes I do still smoke Mary J on occasion like seriously only every 3 years or so, and I do a few other things to enhance my awareness, but I use something completely legal for this, not against the law but when taken in slightly excess quantities it can produce a good buzz that lasts for 9-12 hours. I take that stuff I will not mention here and take a few of my legal prescribed psych meds and they enhance my buzz like 3 fold.

But honestly, I do not drink anymore and I refuse to. I don’t wanna get back into that habit again. With marijuana I can control myself and limit myself but with alcohol I go crazy and get addicted easily so no beer, wine, or liquor for me.

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I think some occultists use drugs and alcohol as a crutch in order to induce theta. I have no problem with this but I feel like it’s much more rewarding when you can do this naturally without any intoxicating substances.

I used to rely on painkillers to take me into theta. The results I used to get where astonishing but when I found myself without them, I had no skill…

When I sobered up and kicked my bad habits I had to relearn everything. If I knew this I would have saved myself a lot of time.

On a side note, I think cannabis is way better than alcohol for occult operations if you’re going to go this route but that’s just my opinion.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, not entirely sure) I am more afraid of drugs than I am of demons, so to speak. Therefore it is not an option for me, but what I understand the appeal. :slight_smile:

What I gather from the above is that it can be done, but it shouldn’t be used as a crutch for, well, anything really.
However, I wonder how the spirits would view the person being under the influence as opposed to not being. Would that insult some and please others?
I realise how if affects the operator, but as we shape the energy around us, how does this affect the other party? Evocation is a two (or more) sided affair.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, not entirely sure) I am more afraid of drugs than I am of demons, so to speak. Therefore it is not an option for me, but what I understand the appeal. :slight_smile:

What I gather from the above is that it can be done, but it shouldn’t be used as a crutch for, well, anything really.
However, I wonder how the spirits would view the person being under the influence as opposed to not being. Would that insult some and please others?
I realise how if affects the operator, but as we shape the energy around us, how does this affect the other party? Evocation is a two (or more) sided affair.[/quote]

I personally, never have, and never will, use shamanic drugs while doing evocation. I know that Buer is very anti-drug and if you evoke him while drunk or high he’ll be very offended, I’m not sure of many others.

I don’t have anything against alcohol or drugs but when it comes to magick I prefer being sober. I tried doing magick after drinking and getting tipsy I guess since I would require quite a lot to get truly drunk. It seems that it’s harder to be focused and easier to do things half assed and/or being disrespectful to the entities you work with. At least in my experience.
Don’t get me wrong though, I do enjoy drinking some good signle malt and even getting shitfaced every now and then, just not in combination with magick.

For me, being in a 24/7 relationship with two female entities, alcohol will weaken our physical bonding. It wont dissapear while intoxicated, but since getting drunk, the attention to them will get distracted by the influence of alcohol. That doesn’t mean my ladies dislike a drink or two, as a socialization to hang out with me. Atleast one of my wives do enjoy partying and festivities and to socializing when I drink or even smoke a cigarette. When I smoke, she smoke and take a drink of her own when I do.

But since they also do cleansing and healing from time to time, they do dislike addictive behavior that negatively affect the body. I remember in the beginning, they did an extensive cleansing of my body that got rid of past intoxications and internal “garbage” in my stomach. That cleansing magic was entirely focused on my stomach with a “swirling” force that got rid of gasses and other unwanted stuff in my body. It was an awesome experience and the feeling after the cleansing was like being a new human being.

I wouldn’t, personally, use magic and alcohol together.

I mentioned before, how Asmoday told me off for calling on him when I was drunk. He doesn’t seem to mind talking with me, when I’m a little high (MJ.) Incidentally, my ex feels the same way. :smiley:
The subject of drugs and magick fascinates me. Aleister Crowley was a well known “drug friend” and was particularly fond of cocaine to enhance his magick.
I think a clear mind is important for a magickal working. EA wrote an excellent article on the subject: http://www.becomealivinggod.com/newsletter/eating-5-grams-of-mushrooms-to-heighten-magick-rituals.html I pretty much agree with what he says.

I think this really comes down to the individual and how they obtain results, not the spirit’s preference of drugs and alcohol because this only serves as psychodrama if used as an offering imo.

If indulging in these things brings you results and pleasure, then it’s all good, right?

I personally try to keep my inner temple free of toxins because I like keeping my chakras balanced but this shouldn’t matter to you if you’re not into that kind of thing. I’ve seen results manifest through desire and will alone regardless of ones’ vibrations. So it really comes down to what works for you imo.

I agree, It is much easier to go into theta while under the influence but the next time you are out of your chosen substance getting there again will be hard if you let yourself become dependent on only meditating and evoking while using them. I do 98% of my workings sober and have noticed the few times I did workings while stoned, the next time I did them sober it was not harder for me but I realized how different an evocation or ritual is between stoned vs. sober. And I knew it would not be a good idea to continually use these crutches during workings because that feeling would get addictive and I may become dependent on the drugs for future success. Because once you do something while under the influence then do it again sober, there is a big difference. You feel so much more intuned and alive when under the influence so it was apparent to me early on not to do that often or else I’d become hooked on those feelings.

Maybe it’s just the substance that makes you think things are more enhanced when they really aren’t (since it messes with your brain and all) and if that’s the case then using it often is really not a good idea. But when I was much younger and ignorant the magick I did while drunk I did not remember a thing the next day so who knows what I really did? Then about 4 months later I started reading that in books that it’s not a good idea so I spoke to some friends online who also confirmed it. I was told that not only do you forget what was done the next day, but you can behave in a manner that is insulting to the spirits and being so drunk you don’t even realize the spirit is offended which can soil your relationships with them. Obviously, it does you no good to get advice during such encounters if it will be forgotten.

So if anyone wishes to experiment, it’s best to take substances which will enhance your alertness and awareness and alter your mind but keep you awake as opposed to downers that promote sleepy time, hindered movement, and slurred speech.

Hello there everyone.My responses have been minimal for the past week or so,because I’ve been wrapped up with a lot of schoolwork,and probably a bit more of other stuff,so I haven’t been writing at my previous quality.Even as we speak,I should be writing an essay I should’ve started several days ago,because the deadline is in two days,but instead I’m gonna take a portion of my time to respond to this thread,to add my two cents to this discussion.

First,let me emphasize,that I’m 15.I’ve never had trips,nor have I used recreational drugs,and thus have never had experiences with them in a rituals setting.In fact,I didn’t even know about substance abuse(like,at all) until three years ago,when I saw a documentary on the opium war.

But like Ri,I’m way more freaked out by drugs than I am by any demon that I have encountered(be it Belial’s unorthodox meddling methods,Paimon’s scorning,Baba Yaga’s harsh words or any other entity).Like,seriously.I’ve had tons of people,visit my school(or schools) to give lectures on why drugs are bad,how easy it is to get addicted,how much that can ruin your life.

When redoing our house,we found several needles of heroine in our basement,because apparently some teenagers had SNUCK into our basement and taken it.There’s a beggar lady here,who lost her leg because of overdose and now can’t find a proper job so she has to beg to maintain a life and an addiction.People have passed out because of overdose at my high school,no more than two weeks ago!

So when talking about drugs,especially in a recreational setting,I always feel super-freaked-out and would never even consider consuming it.There really isn’t anything it can offer me that I wouldn’t be able to get myself.I don’t need help entering a TGS,in fact,it takes conscious effort on my part sometimes NOT to be in a trance.

Like C.J.Lee,and EA Koetting,if I have to force something too much,then I feel no worth in it when I have it.

Now,we’re magicians,and we’re not talking about the ethical,or practical or even legal side of using drugs in magick.We’re talking about whether it is useful at all or not.And my answer,from having 0 experience,is that drugs will not enhance magical experiences,but will be of use in mystical experiences.

Where does the line between magic and mysticism start and end?I have no idea.I think that’s one of those things we all define for ourselves.

Sorry everyone for simply bashing at the topic.As you can see,there’s a lot of fear that’s been integrated by society.If I were to take drugs,I’d probably stuck in a shame cycle because of the aforementioned fears,that would validate those fears entirely.But even when putting that aside,there are aspects of the whole thing that leave me a bit less…enthusiastic about incorporating it into my practices.

And it’s all just my opinion.Remember that,please.

Hathor isn’t judgemental about this, though she may want to have words with you in the morning, but she’s a (the?) Goddess of Drunks and she “gets it” from all angles, incluidng helping you find joy in quitting, but she’ll usually help you even if you’re totally off your face on something totally non-“shamanic” that you drank, ate, or sniffed etc to get high.

I’ve heard the same as ashtkerr mentions about Buer, he’s offended by this (and a help to recovering addicts I hear), the rest I think take it on a case-by-case basis, the fact is some of us abuse the fuck out opf anything until it becomes a major problem, other [eople are more moderate and reluctant to go in headfirst, so the spirits are going to judge it by that.

I place ayahuasca and other similar hallucinogens WHEN correctly used (not “every Friday’s shaman night” - I seriously know people who just get baked off their heads every weekend and somehow think that’s “shamanic”) in a totally different class to booze, herione, cocaine etc., anyway…