Would you agree with the analogy that the Operator acts as a magickal “conductor” of sorts in ritual? Who ensures the violins play their part when required, and the flutes theirs, rather than a chaotic mess of instruments, Euoi?
What then would you say is the agency which activates the magic you intended to produce in this realm. i.e. how do the plants and other correspondences “know” what to do?
Creed, absolutely. That is quite an apropos way of putting it.
Student, obviously you tell them. Once your intent is made clear to the spirits of the plants, then they will know what to do.
I don’t think you and Gnosis are too far apart then. Gnosis is certainly more Operator driven and you have a more holistic approach, but these are functions of our experiences.
How does that translate into action? In other words, do the spirits of plants “understand” speaking, or a pictorial message, or merely one’s visualizations? Do they understand “better” if we burn the representations, or if we bury them?
In other words, how does “tradition” make magic more or less effective?
I don’t understand how this is a matter of “tradition”. Plant spirits are exactly like any other kind of spirit, except that they flesh bodies that can be used directly in ritual.
The plant spirits are friends who (if asked nicely) will perform tasks for us. Stones, trees, even volcanoes have spirits and are some of the most powerful allies ( or enemies) you can make. It’s no different than asking a demon or angel for help, except of course the energy is of a different vibration. It has nothing to do with tradition.
Interesting. I think we are actually both thinking along the same lines, you just prefer to refer to them as inherent spirits, whereas I view them, activated, as possessing an alchemical property of aether/mercury(spirit), that when separated from their base salt/sulpher, via the ritual of the operator, he can use their spiritual energy as he pleases.
I’m just more into Hermetic philosophy at the moment, (Microcosm/Macrocosm/Whole), but I like your approach.
Ultimately at the end of the day we’re all using the forces of nature.
I’ve come to the same concussion. I think that we’re differing more on the semantics of the thing.
My sweetie believes everything in the world (spirit and physical) is an emanation of the shared sub/superconscious mind, and that spirits, especially, are manifestations of archetypes from within that mind, heavily influenced by one’s own subconscious and also conscious beliefs and expectations.
He also believes all events and experiences are mirrors for the person who experiences them, showing them a manifest representation of their internal state. This can obviously be quite annoying at times…
When I’m done teasing him about how I’m part of his mind and therefore he can’t ever criticise me :o) we talk a lot about this stuff.
Where we’ve reached a broad agreement is that things like herbs and plants are the manifest forms of those forces, whether viewed (as I do) as external and discrete spirits, or (in his case) as physical manifestations of spiritual forces that have their ultimate source within the operator.
Since I also believe that back of and behind my own personality lies the single unwavering Source of all, which creates everything as a function of its mind, really it is almost down to semantics and the emphasis we respectively place on the human’s ability to affect reality using their mind alone.
So in my model, Sage is a spirit manifest as various plants, and there to be spoken to - in his model his highest levels of self “needed” sage to exist as part of the balance and wholeness of the universe, so it was brought into being spiritually and then made physically manifest so it can be used in various ways.
Where we agree with magickal technique is that what’s called “evoking omnipotence” - entering the closest state to actual Godhood you’re capable of achieving - is the best state to both command other beings, and also (occasionally) to create starightforward reality shifts.
In my model that works because I’m kind of moving “up” the ladder of power and ability to think things into being, and in his model it works because you drop the petty limitations of the conscious and everyday seperate subconscious mind, to interact with “your” other manifestations such as a plant spirit or a crystal, or whatever.
Not sure if this is helpful but thought I’d share it, we have superficially different beliefs but have both reached agreement on some important aspects.
But if the correspondences are incorrect, then the spirits won’t respond favorably - the ritual will fail. This means that there are rules and a protocol.
Which some call “traditions.”
[quote=“Student of Goetia, post:31, topic:4535”]But if the correspondences are incorrect, then the spirits won’t respond favorably - the ritual will fail. This means that there are rules and a protocol.
Which some call “traditions.”[/quote]
It depends on whether the qualities are innate - salt for example purifies, we know this spiritually and it’s been used for that purpose for a long time - later we discover how this is a mechanical fact in the physical world as well:
"Sodium Chloride(NaCl)and Bacteria
The microbes would shrivel and die, spores would not be killed but would not be able to germinate. … The physical term for this is hypertonic tension." (Source)
You can see the direct link to herbs in the different known effects of essential oils, for example sage can be used to induce labour, and is a known nervous system stimulant (source).
These qualities that are shown in the physical makeup of the herb and its effects link to the known qualities of the planets, and affirm their magickal use through the doctrine of signatures.
Because herbs have physical properties based on the compounds within them, they’re easier to verify than (for example) a list of entity names which may have been misspelled or their heirarchy misattributed by one single person, whose ancient UPG is then incorrectly taken as definitive law.
That’s my take on it, anyway.
[quote=“Student of Goetia, post:31, topic:4535”]But if the correspondences are incorrect, then the spirits won’t respond favorably - the ritual will fail. This means that there are rules and a protocol.
Which some call “traditions.”[/quote]
What correspondences are you talking about? Planetary hours, days etc? I don’t use those and have never had a ritual “fail” when using plants or herbs.
But if the correspondences are incorrect, then the spirits won’t respond favorably - the ritual will fail. This means that there are rules and a protocol.
Which some call “traditions.”[/quote]
Do you have any experiential knowledge to back this claim up, or is this something you read?
What do “correspondences” have to do with the ability of plant spirits to understand you?
You know what? Why don’t stop this useless line of questioning? Get to Google and research all the sorts of plants that grow in your bioregion. Go out and try to find these plants. When you do, bear giifts of liquors, tobacco, coins, and incense. Sit down gently stroke the plant, tell it your name. Give it the offerings one by one. Ask the spirit to speak to you. Listen. Record. Respectfully thank the plant when you are done and be on your way.
Remember, real world experience trumps theory any day.
If one is using a Lunar plant for a working best worked with a Saturnian plant,
or if one is using an Earth plant, for a working best worked with a plant of Air,
and so on.
– correspondences and traditions.
The subject treated byTrithemius and Agrippa, and are also known in ancient Chthonic magic and in most if not all ancient sorcery.
What is interesting is that although some Arabic correspondences differ with Anglo-Saxon and so forth, overall they align.
I normally don’t use correspondences. I use a plant that has abilities corresponding to my need. But still, what does that have to do with plants understanding the magician?
The real question is, what does any of this have to do with the magical circle? From the perspective of the OP.
That depends on how we define ‘invocation,’ and whether it actually means assuming the “god form.” I don’t believe that is the intention in Verum. Of course GD and its derivatives use the Bornless Invocation.[/quote]
Incorrect. Crowley used the Bornless One. It was a private ritual of Bennett that Crowley popularized through including it in his version of the Goetia. Regardie included it in the GD book as a ritual example in his Z section of the book and people assumed it was a standard ritual of the Order.