Thoughtforms vs demons/angels

I was wondering what do you believe is actually happening.
What is a thoughtform to you? What differentiates it form a demon/angel?
Do pre-human thoughtforms exist?
Are demons/angels just archetypes from our collective unconscious translated into information that can travel our psyche?
What makes Satan or God actual spirits and not just egregores?

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@BLCKVLVTHF Okay. Here it goes.[quote=“BLCKVLVTHF, post:1, topic:20604”]
What is a thoughtform to you?
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A being created from thought by another intelligent being without the support of a preexisting current. [quote=“BLCKVLVTHF, post:1, topic:20604”]
Do pre-human thoughtforms exist?
[/quote]
Yes[quote=“BLCKVLVTHF, post:1, topic:20604”]
Are demons/angels just archetypes from our collective unconscious translated into information that can travel our psyche?
[/quote]
I would say no. That theory leaves out several important points in my opinion. Firstly, these entities are demonstrably more than just information. They are intelligence and POWER. Secondly, if you see someone walking down the street you don’t automatically think that they must be “archetypes from our collective unconscious translated into information that can travel our psyche” so why should it be different if a Spirit materializes in your room?[quote=“BLCKVLVTHF, post:1, topic:20604”]
What makes Satan or God actual spirits and not just egregores?
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I would say “God” IS an egregore. However, I would say that Satan, is not for several reasons. Firstly, the fact that he is part of a current that I believe exists externally, and comes from a world external to this one. Secondly, the fact that I do believe he has existed before humankind and therefore cannot have been a human creation. Thirdly, raw power. “Actual Spirits” tend to be far more powerful.

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@BLCKVLVTHF The problem with the thoughtform argument is that the power of entities, in my experience, has next to nothing to do with how many people believe in them. In fact a lot of the most powerful entities out there are beings that are both believed in by very few people, and have made it onto the public scene only incredibly recently. The Old Ones being the primary example. This, to me, supports the argument that there must have been a prexisting entity and external current because otherwise it makes no sense that these beings have the power they do.

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@BLCKVLVTHF The even more extreme example of the above point is when individual sorcerers come across a NEVER BEFORE HEARD OF being and they prove to be more powerful than a lot of beings that have been known for ages (read Kingdoms of Flame, and the Book of Azazel for examples). There needs to have been a preexisting being to call upon or at least a preexisting current for that to make any sense, otherwise it’s hard to explain where the power of these beings comes from. They are certainly more powerful than the sorcerer who discovered them could have created.

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Core shamanism often causes the shamanic healer to meet powerful beings who will often not even give a name, and yet they’ll do amazing work, even life-saving, and then you won’t see them again.

That fits (just) within a model of “oh all spirits are aspects of the self/mass suconscious emanating from the Source” which does allow for these patterns to lie dormant in between encounters by different people, and to exist prior to the individual healer’s birth, but it seems incompatible with the idea magicians are the only source of power, and conscious evocation into a structured and defined form and function is all that will summon a spirit.

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In the case of the legions of Azazel as i have not read kingdoms of flame, depending on the weight you place on the info in it you could say there is a possiblity that some or all of Azazel’s legions my be His thought forms, formed in spaces and dimensions where linear time does not exist. Hence they would be ageless or ancient at their moment of formation.

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@Dinmiatus I wouldn’t say thoughtform in that case. There is still that link to a preexisting current. It’s more a demon’s child than a thoughtform in the conventional “egregore created by sorcerer” sense.

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Thought form, tulpa, egregore. These terms denote beings created by the thoughts of man in various degrees of power.

In this same sense in the case of demons,angels, elementals ect. Could the possibility not exist that they form their own legions of spirits in a similar manner that we as humans decern to see as “children”. In Bmoa there is a ritual to reawaken the blackened sol of dead matter in animal,vegetable and mineral a result of which new spirits or Divs of nature are awakened which can be worked with by the zanda as familars.

I have worked with 2 of such spirits so far, the 2nd just last night and they are indeed potent in power.

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@Dinmiatus I am not denying the possibilities of these things. I am simply saying that in order to keep definitions meaningful, I wouldn’t consider them thoughtforms since they are formed of more than just thoughts.

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@Dinmiatus The thing with the Path of Smoke is that when doing this you are utillizing a preexisting current in order to create new beings right? That current of power has always been there even if you shape it into different forms.

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This same statement applies to that energy which our very thoughts are made up of, the only “difference” i can see is the “degree of power” to which people actively use this energy. There are some who choose no current of magick or path other than the mind and yet they too get results.

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@Dinmiatus The point is that it’s a nice prepackaged thing that can be drawn upon.

@Dinmiatus Something that’s just there to tap into if you get what I mean. The mind alone can bring results, but in this particular context, I do think there is a difference that can be drawn between preexisting currents and power that is projected from the sorcerer’s own mind. I am not deriding either. I am simply trying to clarify definitions as per the OP.

It is true an establish system can make things easier to figure out and utilize practically. I was commenting as to the raw power of things as well. Understanding can help but instinctal awareness of a thing can be just as powerful. Take those who first develop the more primal or early versions of what we know as the modern martial arts and the arts of war. They drew from various sources, some of instinct some of nature, some from spirit.

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The answer the the OP is going to vary depending on how a given person views the mechanics of reality as it were. Some see it energetic,spirits,psychological, ect. Or a mixing a various parts.

I tend to see alot of blurred lines of each as within and without as above so below. Each is of truth but not the whole truth and as a result each is of the lie or a piece of the puzzle in the act of becoming.

Franz Bardons Initiation into Hermetics has a few examples of beings before time.

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